Time and again, we hear the following: "These hard-working immigrants do the work that Americans will not do." President Obama has characterized immigrants, particularly illegal immigrants, as "workers who pick our fruit and make our beds." As if those are the only tasks undertaken by illegal immigrants!
The fact remains, however, that illegal immigrants do a great deal of unskilled labor of all types as well as certain types of skilled labor (carpentry, masonry, automotive repair, warehouse work, taxi drivers, etc.).
Many Americans do hire immigrants to do such work, and those immigrants are often illegal. According to what I see every day, immigrants — legal or otherwise — appear to be the largest portion of the labor force here in the United States.
Before responsing to the FEATURED QUESTION below, also consider the following: Businesses to receive incentive for hiring illegal immigrants, report says. Does that kind of special treatment foster a level playing field?
FEATURED QUESTION, in three parts: (1) Is it true that Americans will not do certain jobs? (2) If so, why won't Americans do certain jobs? (3) Is there a viable, affordable alternative to a labor source composed mostly of illegal immigrants, who often are willing to work at a much lower wage than other workers?
1. Yes. 2. A lot of jobs are perceived to be beneath some people or do not pay enough to support a family. Think farm workers. 3. No.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is the companies who hire illegals will now have to pay them at least minimum wage. And that will cut into their profits. No wonder why the GOP has been sitting on an Immigration Bill.
ReplyDeleteThere was a time when Americans would not accept certain jobs because they didn't have to because there were better jobs available to them. That is less true today. Minimum Wage jobs have typically been a stepping stone to something better. Although still true, that also is less true today. However, especially if one has a family to support, there is a safety net (hammock) that pays better than a minimum wage job.
ReplyDeleteIt is my understanding that these legalized illegal immigrants will be eligible for Social Security and Medicaid, but they will not (for now) be eligible for welfare or for ObamaCare. So, they will either take minimum wage jobs, if available, or work off-the-books for less than minimum wage. No wonder the US Chamber of Commerce is behind amnesty.
No doubt some future Congress will make them eligible for welfare benefits, too.
If we look at this with a Marxian analysis (N.B. NOT referring to the market) we can look at Kapital's basic problem.
DeleteIt needs profit and it needs growth. I doubt there is disagreement here.
An expanding work force lowers wages which increases profit and also growth.
It's unsustainable and if you se a bit of a neo-Malthusian bent here, so be it but the immigration happens for a reason and Kapital's great achievement is to push the blame on immigrants while profiting.
If that casts Kapital as something like the devil, well...
... then there's the old problem of not letting low wage workers starve. Enter our manifestation of the social welfare state.
DeleteCall it the Walmart model.
A society w/o profit.... look forward to it, ducky! It's for the "good" of the body!, after all.
DeleteCall it the B Corp model.
DeleteWithout profit? Unlikely.
DeleteHowever, that does not preclude an admission that the current economic system is not sustainable and will leave a large portion of the world's population in a virtual state of serfdom. That condition exists.
Now maybe the best we can do is a reasonable social welfare state. Or we can go the Freethinke route and say screw 'em, throw them a couple scraps.
Or go the whole A Clockwork Orange.
DeleteA Reasonable Welfare State? Somebody call PT Barnum. Thomas Piketty has found another sucker willing to buy his book.
DeleteThersites makes me wish Blooger comments had a "thumbs up" button
DeleteThanks sf. The sentiment is mutual!
Delete@ Ducky: "It needs profit and it needs growth. I doubt there is disagreement here.
DeleteAn expanding work force lowers wages which increases profit and also growth."
There's a lot to untangle there, but I'll start by reminding you that people have been hiring workers, getting hired, bartering, buying, selling and reselling since time immemorial.
You act like this were an evil invention of "Saint Ronnie Raygun."
Everyone needs profit. A store can't function without it, and neither can an individual or household. If there is nothing to gain from an exchange (for labor, goods, or services), a smart person will not engage in it.
An expanding workforce --in a static economic environment-- will result in reduced wages. It does not immediately follow that a firm's profits will increase as a result, especially if productivity of the lower-paid workers does not increase. Same goes for growth.
Look at China. You can only make the workers suck it up for so long, then even a totalitarian communist government must give in and make wage concessions. Had it been a western style system, employers would have already been raising wages, since the factory workers also buy stuff.
So, you made a magical leap there, but you provided no real-world examples.
Dave Miller got it right.
ReplyDeleteJMJ
1) Yes, there are jobs Americans won't do... at that price. This relates to #2. Introduce into a marker people willing to work for less money, and wages go down. that is not a complex or controversial concept. It was one of the foundational basis for labor unions. We all stand together and demand a living wage.
ReplyDelete3) Yes. The progressive overlords need to stop deprecating the skilled and semi-skilled trades, and stop herding everyone into college.
Welders, HVAC technicians, plumbers and carpenters make pretty good money.
Mark Suckerturd and Silicon Valley billionaire boys club want the same thing as the US Chamber of Communists: Cheap labor.
Not only does Suckerturd not want to pay a fair wage to the people who clean his toilets, he also hates the idea of hiring an uppity American when he can import cheap coders and pay them half to a quarter of what that arrogant American with the STEM degree demands.
These elites don't care that our country is turning into a third world toilet. Their kids don't have to go to the rotten teacher syndicate-run government schools they foist on the rest of us. Their money and privilege wall them off from the societal dysfunction and decay the create.
It's sick. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Things won't change until the limos and high-end automobiles of the financial, political and cultural elite start catching some brickbats.
As long as the abusive oligarchy can sleep soundly in their gated communities without fear, they will not change their behavior.
I have lived and traveled around Latin America for a large part of my life and people ask me why there are so many revolutions there. This is why.
Then we have another dimension which is prevalent in L.A., sadly; Hispanics threatening death to General Contractors who won't hire them and their families. I know this first hand, sadly. And I know it multiple times. It's nothing shocking; it just IS. Do they all do that, of course not; but it's something we have to stop. As is sending salaries home to Central America without having paid any tax on them. Paying under the table MUST STOP.
DeleteSF: sounds very close to your saying it's the successful who are causing the problems of the poor in America. That's a scary idea to me; while I TOTALLY agree with your take on how worthless college is for many kids and how we're losing the ability to work with our hands, I applaud those who do well, hire many at good pay (trust me), and can afford to buy expensive things...beautiful homes, etc.
I want that to remain for America; I don't want one huge damned socialist ghetto that liberals seem to be hoping for so "Everybody has something". EVERYBODY can't without the gov't giving it to them; WHEN will liberals learn that?
Sure, there are always going to be rich taking advantage of the poor, as the poor are threatening the 'rich' I describe above, but ....not sure I totally agree with where you seem to be leading. Am I wrong?
This is not a leftwing screed aimed at the rich.
DeleteI think the financial, cultural, corporate and government elites who serve themselves on the backs of taxpayers should rot in hell, and that includes Zuckerberg and his Silicon Valley Billionaire Boys Club (How have they advance humanity? All they've done is enable people to surf porn faster. Dave Miller singlehandedly serves humanity more than all of those greedy pricks combined), Wall Street and their financial stink bombs that benefit no one but themselves, crony crapitalists getting government handouts that make social welfare look like chump change, the DC Criminal Gangs, and the social elites who plaster us over with propaganda that says its all OK.
I don't know how you dismantle something like this. They are all too rich and powerful. I'll reiterate: This is why revolutions happen.
SF, I'd never accuse you of writing leftwing screeds but I do get very uptight when I hear people slam the rich ... I keep thinking of the lovely things people could at least ASPIRE to ...still can. And I want those things to remain.
DeleteI hope that the internet's pretty great other than for fast porn surfing...don't you think? !! :-)
There's always going to be good and bad about having money, being poor, ...whatever.
I'll grant you those people do little for humanity but I suspect they give a lot in charity (good write off, after all!!!!)
but...ya..dismantling would be the end of our economy and, probably, capitalism, because as I've said for a few years now, we cannot have capitalism and the kind of nasty folks Americans have turned out to be; greedy, grabby. It just can't work. It can't.
I have nothing against the rich. That's where the jobs come from.
DeleteI do have enmity for those who play dirty, exempt themselves from the rules and screw the rest of us in the process.
Zuckerberg and his ilk are billionaires. Why do they support importing cheap labor instead of employing Americans? Greed explains it. That and a complete disdain for this country and its people.
The Welfare-Nanny-State mentality has all but destroyed the once admirable American Work Ethic.
ReplyDeleteAfter all real work is difficult, often tedious, aggravating and exhausting. Sitting home in front of a TV in government-subsidized housing, while collecting government checks and food stamps that provide a low-but-guaranteed subsistence means of support is much easier than going out to do menial tasks and take orders from superiors one may not like, etc.
The illegal immigrants who came here to WORK ---- NOT the more recent variety who cam here to take ADVANTAGE of the largesse provided by The Welfare State ---- have a far better work ethic than most workng-class Americans today. Our workers have long been spoiled because of the machinations of Unionism and Progressive Interventionism, which have produced the obnoxious, ultimately self-defeating Entitlement Mentality.
So, YES, Americans, now getting DESPERATE, to find ways to put bread on the table, and keep a roof over their heads as overly-extended Unemployment Benefits run out, ARE willing to take jobs they would have considered beneath them a few short years ago. HOWEVER, the GOOD Illegal Immigrants are far BETTER and more efficient at performing those tasks, because they have not yet been softened up, over-indulged, and made resentful of their employers by the destructive schemes floated and promoted ceaselessly by the Dictocrats.
The problem has NOT come from the illegal immigrants, themselves; it has come from the interfering, self-righteous Busybodys, crypto-Marxists, Bleeding Heart Liberals, Mercy Freaks and Grievance Junkies that comprise far too great a proportion of the electorate.
Thank you, Herbert Spencer.
DeleteDucky,
DeleteI think FreeThinke's analysis was well-reasoned. As societies become more advanced, the individual does become softer, and the individual also does no have to know all of the things and have all of the skills of his grandparents.
Our welfare state started with a noble goal of keeping the elderly and the lame from starving to death. It has grown into a monster.
And calling FT Herbert Spencer is supposed to be an insult? He was one of the leading intellectual lights of his time.
Societies do evolve and adapt. I was just reading this morning about how the nature of our work and activities could be to blame for the explosion of myopia in America over the past 40 years.
Well, Specer is only the great thinker of the age according to libertarians.
DeleteHe and Marx both predicted the state wold wither away. Which one was correct?
Ducky,
DeleteI don't think out morbidly obese federal government is in any danger of withering away anytime soon.
The federal government's demise will come with a great financial crash that destroys the dollar.
The answer to all three questions is, "It depends".
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, the reason Americans are not doing certain jobs is because of the pay level. Given any task, there are always people in the economy who will do the job at the right price. What is the right price? I am glad you asked.
Everybody has alternatives. If any person can receive more from a welfare system for a given level of living, why should they labor at a job, why should they take the job? If the welfare system were not available somebody, i.e. American citizen, would be taking that job.
From the perspective of the employer, why should they pay a going market price in a welfare economy when illegal labor is available at a cheaper price?
If illegal labor were not available most of those jobs now being filled by illegal aliens would be filled by American citizens. These include stoop labor, chicken factory labor (in Georgia), tens of thousands of construction jobs (in Georgia), landscaping jobs by the thousands (in Georgia).
We have managed to create an economy where it pays more for some citizens to sit at home and raise bastard children rather than get a job. We are participating in an international labor market where people will migrate to take advantage of the economic opportunities created by an ignorant government.
There is no job a person will not do to be able to feed their family. This included American citizens and everybody else in the world. There are also few tasks done in the job market that cannot be automated to some extent, but at a price determined by an international market of labor.
I can't wait for Ducky's reply to Bob...
DeleteI agree with you Bob. I might add that if Obama waved his magic scepter and decreed that every fast food worker would make 20/hour, that McDonalds down the street would turn into a completely-automated burger and fries dispensing machine tended by a single individual paid the new minimum wage.
We have managed to create a world where there is a massive oversupply of labor.
DeleteSilverfiddle doesn't seem to believe that Kapital has been introducing automation at a pretty good clip and freezing out a lot of people from employment.
Bob would apparently be happy to see those people starve.
When computers first came out, I said "people are going to lose jobs, BIG TIME" and everybody poo-poo'd that with "we need computer inputters, etc." which, of course is true...but there can be no doubt that automation is taking over.
DeleteDid anybody see the robotic 'carts' that Amazon.com uses in their factories so HUMANS don't have to go fetch the items......hundreds of these little orange things putting HUNDREDS out of a job.
I hope I'm wrong, but.......it seems like automation is taking over and we haven't encouraged young people to learn refined cabinetry or other disciplines that machines will NEVER be able to do.
Ah... Ducky... A man of the people, lamenting the advent of the automobile and all those buggy makers put out of business, and that damned Rockerfeller destroying the candle-making profession.
DeleteI won't bore you with Schumpeter, but a vibrant economy builds new industries and new professions upon such technological advancement. Unfortunately, the regulatory barriers to entry are formidable, thanks to the DC criminals doing the bidding of the corporations.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteNo, z, you are absolutely correct.
DeleteWe are going to have to deal with the fact that the industrial world
has a gross surplus of labor.
Silverfiddle, Schumpeter is a serious voice. However, I don't believe he addresses the issue of labor over supply.
He does address the means by which Kapital avoids stagnation but
that's cold comfort for so very many.
Ducky,
DeleteI am not a rich man, I am approaching middle-age, and I am a wage slave, so please don't think I'm pretending it's all wine and roses. It's not, but things change, technology advances. That's progress.
Mankind has always shown a capacity for bringing about these changes, taking advantage of them, and overcoming the negative aspects (and there are always downsides to progress). The freer people are, the better able they are to adapt.
We are economically stifled here in the US (and actually in most of the West), while the corporations and the big guys run rampant.
The Post WWII boom times are over (I include the 80's and 90's since they were in the same mold.)
Those days are gone, and so is the prosperity. We need something new, but I don't know what it is. I do know that for this new economy to succeed, it must be organic, growing from the hundreds of millions of participants, and those participants must be free to experiment and reap the rewards of success and suffer the consequences of mistakes.
The American, White man’s society is to blame for waiting until there are riots in the streets to take notice of a crisis that has been festering in the Black community for years if not decades. No one gives a fuck if the cops can beat the hell out of a Black man and shoot Black people arbitrarily and get away with it but let a brick get thrown through a storefront window, or a store gets looted and people lose their fucking mind over it..
ReplyDeleteObama met with several Black leaders of the Ferguson protest movement today in the White House, and the white community gets a hemorrhage because the Rev. Al Sharpton was present.
Michael Brown did steal a box of cigars from a local convenient store that afternoon, just prior to the shooting. For that, he should have been arrested, tried and, if found guilty, convicted and sentenced to 10 days of community service like any white man would have gotten, not shot to death like a wild animal.
You reveal yourself as an imposter who impersonates Sue with this statement:
Delete"Michael Brown did steal a box of cigars from a local convenient store that afternoon, just prior to the shooting. For that, he should have been arrested, tried and, if found guilty, convicted and sentenced to 10 days of community service like any white man would have gotten, not shot to death like a wild animal."
She would never make such a reasoned statement, a like the good ol' dogmatic hard leftwinger that she is, she would never issue the concession that the Gentle Giant stole those cigarillos.
@ Ducky,
ReplyDelete"We have managed to create a world where there is a massive oversupply of labor."
FINE, then we certainly DON'T need any more immigration illegal or otherwise of unskilled labor.
"These hard-working immigrants do the work that Americans will not do."
I submit that "Americans" would do those jobs if they wanted to eat and were not paid to avoid such work!
I say close the borders to ALL immigration, save those with essential skills and knowledge in short supply.
JonBerg...excellent point about not needing to supply illegals when we're already supposedly oversupplied in labor.
DeleteGosh, Sue. White hate. I hope it is not self-hatred.
ReplyDeleteProfile, off the top of my head?
You grew up in an affluent family. You were handed everything. Your father worked his ass off and sacrificed everything for you. But you lost your way.
Your sense of guilt comes from a lack of gratitude. You are deeply ungrateful regarding your family, your American experience, and the immense overshadowing blessings which come from living in such a great land.
Now if you really wanna see violence, travel to the Sudan, Kenya, Somalia, etc. and see how black-on-black violence works every day. But then again, that does not fit your bent toward confirmation bias. If you see inter-racial acts of kindness, you dismiss them as anomalous. If you read of a white police officer who kills a white man, you immediately forget it.
Your fit hits the shan. Too bad you are so bitter. Bitterness and accurate perception are not near companions. Bitterness poisons the well of thought.
Z... I used to believe like you that fine detail work would still have to be done by hand. I've got a couple of MIT/Cal Tech robot making friends who always argued otherwise. I refused to believe until I saw it.
ReplyDeleteEven those supposedly refined jobs can now be done by computerized robots.
Automation is winning out for its efficiency. And there are not a lot if options for the saturated labor market.
I know that and I still say people need to work with their hands, be creative, ...and there are many fields humans still can. I don't believe plumbers and electricians and cabinet makers and people who put glass into cars, etc., are a 'saturated labor market' but you could be right.
DeleteI'd still love to know what's so bad about just assimilating these people. Seems to me it would be best for all.
ReplyDeleteJMJ
Then why don't you head to LA and spearhead an assimilation project? You have whole generations there who have not assimilated. Instead, California has accomodated them, while the rich elites continue their exodus to the northwest of LA.
DeleteThis is what happens when immigrants reach geographical critical mass and their new nation demands absolutely nothing from them.
Two question:
ReplyDelete1. How much effect on available "blue collar" labor has the college-is-for-everyone idea had?
2. Do public high schools still offer vocational training (automotive, cosmetology, etc.)?
Sue Welch,
ReplyDeleteObviously, you did not listen carefully to the findings of the Grand Jury and the forensic evidence regarding Michael Brown.
*First shot came from within the vehicle, based on blood in the vehicle and a projectile with a trajectory from within the police car.
Please take a moment and strap yourself into your vehicle. It is a distinctly vulnerable position if a six foot man is lunging at you from an upright stance.
It appears that after Michael Brown was first wounded he went into a classic flight or fight. First the flight. Then, the movement back to the fight.
How quickly can a man who is enraged move? A man can travel a distance of about 20 feet in 1.5 seconds. Hence, law enforcement also have a distinct understanding that they may have a limited amount of time to respond if a man with a knife charges them.
Perhaps you need to take about twenty minutes and contemplate again, the evidence which the grand jury used to no bill the officer.
Americans make 240 million 9-1-1 calls per year and fifty percent of those calls are placed with wireless devices. We value a police presence in time of need. In fact, a frightened shopkeeper who suffered robbery, assault and battery dialed 9-1-1 and that is the very reason that Officer Wilson was dispatched to the scene.
But please. Next time you are tempted to call 9-1-1- choose not to do so. Let that be your personal memorial to Michael Brown.
Tammy Swofford
Bob... I like your sentiments, but the facts do not bear it out. In the 90's, we had workfare in CA. Before people could get welfare, they had to work in available jobs. Many of those jobs were in the fields. Stoop labor as you call it. Few would actually do the work saying it was too hard for what was being paid. The growers of cited the fact that Americans would not pay the higher prices US based labor demanded.
ReplyDeleteA while back I saw a story about a Riverside gardening company that could not get US based labor to dig ditches in spite of paying 25 bucks an hour and offering benefits. The work was too hard.
Sad but true.
Like many have expressed, I don't have a solution. Even Z's hope will only impact a few in larger scheme.
JMJ; if more Hispanics, at least in California which is all i can really address, learned English so they could finally be other than pickers or gardeners or house cleaners, and if more stopped creating insular barrios all over the city, and if more paid taxes, and if less were committing really bad crimes in this state, who'd CARE to single them out negatively? The truth is many are not.
ReplyDeleteAs I've said so many times, Conservatives believe Hispanics CAN learn English and CAN get better work...we expect more for them. And, believe me, many expect that from themselves and their kids and it's a success for some.
We want assimilation. We don't want them kept down and illiterate; we want informed voters, not needy voters, once they're legal.
@JMJ,
ReplyDeleteWho said that "assimilating" is "bad"?
that's apparently the way he thinks, JB....excellent question. I don't know a rightwinger who doesn't want Hispanics and other immigrants to assimilate....it's good for THEM and it's good for US.
DeleteApparently, wanting immigrants to come in legally means we don't want to assimilate anybody. go frigure.
Z... data shows that by the second full generation, Hispanics acquire English proficiency at about 91% and by the third, at over 97%.
DeleteThis is equal, or in many cases, better than most of our forefathers.
Data also shows that by the third generation, the rate of cultural assimilation is way above previous waves of immigrants. A good example of this is within Hispanic populations, in the third generation, they believe, like may conservatives, that English should be the official language of the US.
No, Dave...I'm talking about twenty five year olds with 3 children who still can't say more than twenty words after having been here for about 6 years. My forefathers learned the language within a year.
DeleteGlad to hear Hispanics believe English should be the official language but I don't believe it. And I don't see any assimilation here. Not a bit.
Not sure what you call assimilation but I call it speaking English at work to other Hispanics, church with other than only Hispanics, etc.
I wish your statistics to be true; I live among many Hispanics and I don't see it. Not one bit. I know quite a few, am very fond of many of them, but language? Not even trying. Assimilation? it's not assimilation to not learn the language when you've come here...and to listen to only Mexican TV and radio.
Of course Hispanics get proficient in the second generation! I'm talking NOW.
One odd thing is that the Hispanics I know, second generation, are conservatives.
Z, the people you mention as having three kids, are they first, or second and third generation Hispanics? It is highly unlikely a second generation person could get through elementary school without speaking English.
DeleteIn our history, most first gen immigrants struggled to learn English. That's one reason in the Civil War we had foreign language brigades.
The research I mentioned cones from both Harvard, a liberal institution, and the Cato Institute, a conservative think tank.
Seldom do two such divergent groups come to a similar conclusion when it comes to research.
And how should WE have assimilated them, SF??
DeleteZ: Good question.
DeleteTeaching their kids in English only would be a good first step.
I don't have any easy answers. I've lived in the Southwest, and I can tell you the dynamic is different in Texas and New Mexico, gringos and Hispanos get along easier as the cultures mix.
HA! that's FIGURE, not FRIGURE....but I kinda like FRIGURE! :-) Sort of like FREAKIN' ! !
ReplyDeleteZ,
ReplyDelete"that's apparently the way he thinks"
Yes, [they] demonstrate a high propensity to voice presumption without fact; a 'characteristic of the breed', one might say. There is ample evidence in just this thread, alone.
1. Yes.
ReplyDelete2. Because it's too easy to be a freeloading loser in America.
3. Don't make it so easy to be a freeloading loser in America.
BAN SUE WELCH.
ReplyDeleteZ,
ReplyDelete"Of course Hispanics get proficient in the second generation! I'm talking NOW".
I swear I'm not at odds with what you say. You are always 'Spot On'. I would like to add, just one thing. I use to go to 'Old Mexico' every year for some 20 years back in the, 70s/80s and met [many] who had never even been here but spoke English, darn near flawlessly. Not only that, while they spoke English to a person , none had ANY desire to move here. Mexico has the 14th largest economy in the World. If you ask me, they could even do better. They should and we should close the Border, as it exists. It would be good for both Nations! Insofar as those who breach Mexico's Southern border, that's their problem, not ours!
ReplyDeleteDamn right there's a difference!!
I know the Democratic party has a far left wing but what they want for America is certainly not extreme when you look at the Far Right and the America they favor...Check out the differences....
The Progressive Left believes in freedom with opportunity for all, responsibility to all, and cooperation among all. We believe that the purpose of government is to advance the common good, to secure and protect our rights, and to help to create a high quality of life and community well-being. We want decent paying jobs and benefits for workers and sustainable economic growth. We want growing businesses producing the world’s best products and services. We want an economy that works for everyone, not just the few. We want all nations to uphold universal human rights and to work together to solve common challenges. This is what a progressive America looks like.
Now for the Far Right, ...The Tea Party....Far-right politics commonly includes authoritarianism, anti-communism, and nativism. Often, the term "far right" is applied to fascists and neo-Nazis, and major elements of fascism have been deemed clearly far-right, such as its belief that supposedly superior people have the right to dominate society while purging allegedly inferior elements, and — in the case of Nazism — genocide of people deemed to be inferior. Claims that superior people should proportionally have greater rights than inferior people are sometimes associated with the far right. The far right has historically favored an elitist society based on belief of the legitimacy of the rule of a supposed superior minority over the inferior masses. Far-right politics usually involves anti-immigration and anti-integration stances towards groups that are deemed inferior and undesirable. Concerning the sociocultural dimension (nationality, culture and migration), one far-right position could be the view that certain ethnic, racial or religious groups should stay separate, and that the interests of one’s own group should be prioritized.
Take some time and look at legislation the Tea Party proposes in states and in Washington. Extremism including murder of abortion doctors encouraged, dismantling programs for the poor, privatizing Social Security and Medicare which really means get rid of them they cost too much, ZERO abortion even if the Mothers life is at risk, guns in the hands of all Americans so they can defend themselves against government, a hate for public education, a hate for science, no regards to our environment, bloated military.
The Road To Hell Is Paved With Republicans. Keep the immigrants, deport the republicans.
I hate the American law enforcement! I think they are dumb jocks who weren't intelligent enough to make the team.
The republican party is no longer a conservative political party; they are lawless anarchists and libertarians; they abandoned their conservative agenda. Their new goal is to destroy the economy, which will destroy America. This is not an exxageration, this is not hyperbole, it is a FACT! And now the criminal Fox News organization's top executives are all being arrested for crimes against American and British citizens. It is obvious that republicans hate America, and they will do everything possible to destroy it. Please "like" our page, and join us in our battle to save America. You can make a difference. We need to fight these anti American criminal forces; they hate America, they hate YOU! join the good fight: SAVE AMERICA be Progressive!
As far as these left wing wacko propaganda sites like “Sue’s” go. I don't take any of those sites very seriously and I don't take her seriously because they believe anything that criticizes the right, whether they are credible or not.
ReplyDeleteAs for Sue herself, I feel that she’s just another leftwing, progressive extremist loon from a LEFT WING LOON site. Meaningless, but dangerous. I wouldn't go to any link she or any other of these lefty loons here provides even with a ten foot pole. My computer might get cooties!
BAN DAVE MILLER
ReplyDeleteScrew Dave Miller
ReplyDeleteTHE SOONER WE GET RID OF OBAMA , THE SOONER THE WORLD WILL GET MORE PEACEFUL.
ReplyDeleteSHIT: OBAMA CAN'T OR WON'T EVEN HIRE A NEW SECDEF! AT A TIME AS DANGEROUS AS EVER FOR THE USA AND OUR ALLIES!
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT: OBAMA IS A MAJOR PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Everything about Obama Is Deceitful - from the Lie-filled Memoir Ayers Wrote for Him to His Amnesty Speech
ReplyDeleteNo Politician Has Ever Lied More than Obama.
His Memoir Was a Lie; He Didn't Even Write It.
His Promise to Take Campaign Financing in His 2008 Election Was a Lie.
His Promise to Debate Healthcare Law on C-span Before Passing it Was a Lie.
His Promise Punish Assad for Using Wmd Was a Lie.
His Descriptions of How and Why Benghazi Happened Were Lies - and He Lied about Bringing the Terrorists to Justice.
He Lied about Desiring to Rein in the Executive Power of the Presidency.
He Lied about Being Able to Change Immigration Laws Without an Act of Congress.
And So On.
Nothing about the Man Is Honest, True, Right, Good, or Well-meaning.
He Is the King of Deceit.
BURY ALL LEFTISTS ALIVE IN A PIT. SPRAY THEM WITH HYDROCHOLERIC ACID, THEN COVER THEM WITH QUICK LIME
ReplyDeleteSounds like a plan to me
DeleteYou win Anon... Despite the fact that all I did was answer the questions AOW posted and provide some factual data, you attack.
ReplyDeleteIt's not worth it to me.
My best to you...
Dave, well said.
DeleteWe go from nuts like Sue (where the HECK does she get this stuff?) to someone wishing all leftists dead.
This is surely not the best of America. Thank GOD.
Blacks like all other Liberals/Progressives have full protection and privileges of the law now. These cretins violate that very law that they will quickly wrap themselves in if prosecuted for their crimes. They, like you, will scream “racism” which is a tired, worn trump card that no longer holds value. No, I know you (Dave) didn’t use the R word, but that is what you are aiming at. And I see you using it and worse at the progressive blogs ALL THE TIME. Calling us wingnuts and worse. So don't come around here and on other Conservative blogs with your 2 faced lies. How many times have YOU called Lisa a "Porn Queen", How many times have you just blindly echoed whatever the Wicked Queen of Progressives? So don't come around here wagging your tail. You are not sincere and everyone know it.
ReplyDeleteYour mentality is why race relations are so bad in this nation. You cannot support those who suck the society dry with their actions and irresponsibility and expect others, who are footing the bill, to agree with you. You, Dave, are a racialist. You see every thing through the prism of racism. You are a 2 faced typical Lib yourself, . And 180 degrees from the goals of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
First, thank you for your service.
DeleteSecond, I'm sad for Dave but grateful to you for mentioning the point here that Dave acts almost reasonable HERE and then calls people names and belittles anything Conservative at the nasty leftwing sites. I've mentioned it before, too, but am glad someone else notices.
Dave, it's really unattractive behavior.
Z,
DeleteThe "blog games" are disgusting.
I see them and say, over and over again, "What is wrong with people?"
I can handle consistency much better than I handle inconsistency.