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Monday, December 26, 2011

No Matter What Your Reservations About The EDL

You must watch this video all the way through:

Information about the English Defence League (EDL) HERE and HERE. Also see THIS LENGTHY INDEX of posts at Lionheart UK.

Yes, much controversy exists with regard to the EDL.

Nevertheless, much of what Tommy Robinson says in the video above the fold is clearly happening.

Furthermore, notice the following, which I posted last week at Infidel Bloggers Alliance:

Tommy Robinson violently beaten up to shouts of "allah ackbar" and "Merry Christmas Tommy".

Gates of Vienna has the story, including more photos.

If political leaders in the UK are so awash in dhimmitude and living in their ivory towers, are these political leaders not setting up the UK for the unthinkable, namely submission or civil war?

As long as I'm dipping into this controversial matter of the EDL, I might as well post THIS LINK to Enoch Powell's 1968 "Rivers of Blood" speech. You can learn more about that speech HERE at YouTube.


  1. Controversy exists around the EDL, but I propose that ANY person or group that opposes the Islamification of our countries will be labeled hatemongering or extremist.

  2. I don't know how anyone could think importing people of a vastly different culture would work out.

    You're bound to get conflict. It is frightening to think people did this deliberately.

  3. I don't know how anyone could think importing people of a vastly different culture would work out.

    It worked in America. But the indigenous people had to be shipped to reservations first.

  4. Gone are they days when people immigrate to a country to join it. Now, it seems that they come to another country to take it over.

  5. Didn't the UK's political leaders disarm the public to keep the citizens safe. Maybe the citizens were disarmed to keep the political leaders safe when the civil war gets going full blast.

    God Bless America, God Save The Republic.

  6. awful. I hope Tommy Robinson will be okay.

    Merry Christmas to you and yours, AOW.


  7. Stogie,
    I have never seen any evidence that they are "neo-Nazi" or extremist in any way.

    Lionheart UK has written some lengthy posts about the EDL. And I have noted that the BNP has voiced support of the EDL.

    On the other hand, any group that decries Islamification gets the label "neo-Nazi." I have also noticed that those who are "upper class" in the UK look down upon any "lower class" movement of any type.

    Frankly, I have a difficult time understanding European politics. European politics and American politics differ greatly -- right down to the definition of "right wing" and "left wing."

  8. Furthermore, the attack upon Tommy Robinson is a significant event that any who are anti-jihad and anti-Islamification should be aware of.

  9. Beamish,
    It worked in America. But the indigenous people had to be shipped to reservations first.

    Certainly, the way of life of the Plains Indians and the way of life of the white settlers were incompatible.

    I can't say the same for the way of life of many of the Eastern tribes and the way of life of the white settlers. Many people do not realize that significant differences between Indian tribes existed.


    Back later! Off to a Boxing Day cocktail party!

  11. The EDL want to preserve their nations heritage and are only protesting the aggressive movement of Islam.

    We are struggling with the same issues as well. We want to protect our traditions and values and not embrace Allah.

    Matt nailed it.

  12. What's the difference between spray painting a mosque and burning poppies?

    If Mr. Master Race doesn't understand he's a little beyond help. Speech vs. property damage?

    Did Lionheart ever get put inside? Little mud time for greenie?

  13. Duck,
    Burning poppies is symbolic.

    Anyway, as far as I know, Lionheart UK didn't do any time. He is in exile in Malta, I think.

    And FYI...Lionheart has repudiated the EDL.

  14. ISLAM is not a RELIGION, it is an INVASION.

    Just as the Anglo-European Caucasians invaded, the conquered North America and virtually annihilated the various cultures and religious practices established by the Indians, so are the Islamic Hordes now invading and conquering Europe and North America.

    The only difference is that the educated classes in The West have adopted a policy of non-resistance, whereas the Indians at least tried to defend themselves.

    The Upper Classes, thinking themselves "rational" and "enlightened" have embraced a policy that could only be labelled properly as SUICIDISM.

    The Dark-Skinned, militantly anti-Christian, anti-Caucasian Hordes vastly outnumber White Christians. It seems only logical to people who consider themselves supremely "tolerant," fair-minded," and "progressive" that White Supremacy, which established itself by dint of high achievement and great courage coupled with an absolute belief in the innate superiority of White Christian Culture that gave rise to aggressively acquisitive impulses, should in turn be conquered and destroyed by those of whom it is now understood that White Christian too unfair advantage.

    In the minds of the "enlightened" and "advanced," TIT must always be exchanged for TAT in the The Great Scheme of things. Therefore, it's only "fair" that "we" who have benefitted so greatly from the past evil deeds of our kind should be forced to CEDE (i.e. give up) everything we've gained to the descendants of our former "victims."

    SUICIDE could be the only acceptable form of PENANCE and CONTRITION for the dreadful deeds of "our kind" in the past. We must lay down our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor -- and any good future prospects for our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren -- as a LIVING SACRIFICE in order to ATONE for the horrors we have perpetrated.

    Sound insane to you?

    Well, nuts or not that is EXACTLY what is happening to Western Christian Civilization as we type.

    ~ FreeThinke

  15. FreeThinke,
    the educated classes in The West have adopted a policy of non-resistance, whereas the Indians at least tried to defend themselves

    Does the West has a whole even know what values it believes in?

    It looks to me as if the West is DELIBERATELY committing suicide.

    Many factors playing into the West's having lost its moxie -- not the least of those factors being our education system. Young minds are being imprinted, and undoing that imprint is well nigh impossible.

  16. Oh my goodness, that is terrible. Unfortunately things like this seem to be happening more often.

    Right Truth

  17. I have to say, since no one else has noticed it, that it's highly ironic that Mr. Robinson heads an organization called The English Defence League, yet speaks in a very low Cockney dialect.

    The interviewer -- Mr, Coren, was it? -- speaks very well indeed, even though he admits to having come from a "questionable" background.

    I find the contrast between the two more-than-a-little startling, BUT I suppose the working class may very well be the last repository of Western Democratic Values -- just as Orwell illustrated in Nineteen-Eighty-Four where "The Proles" were the only element left in society who could experience life in a joyous, spontaneous fashion.

    Mr. Robinson for all his blatant exhibition of bad speech is obviously very intelligent and articulate -- AND on the correct side of the issues. Seems like the kind of good-hearted bloke with whom you'd enjoy sharing a glass of beer at the corner pub. Salt of the earth and all that.

    So odd that so many of those with the best "breeding" and the most polished Oxford accents have turned traitor not only to their class but to the Civilization that nurtured and protected them! Such was certainly nt the case in the days of Sir Winsotn.

    That's what a century or insidious Marxist infiltration and indoctrination has done through the universities all over the Western World.

    ~ FreeThinke

  18. I have to tell you the verification word for that last post was GENES, can you believe it?

    I guess if "good breeding" doesn't show any more, genetics has rushed in to fill the gap.


    ~ FT

  19. @FT Only thing I will add is that the practices of colonization and taking over another's land have been discredited by the educated for any years now, with Islam the only one staying true to the old ways. And yet even though everyone knows that, we still fell sorry for the actions done in a time when it was completely acceptable. Value Dissonance, you are a cruel thing.

    And yes, the West is committing suicide, it feels it deserves it for the actions in the past. I think it would be better if we look at how we have helped, past and present, and focus on doing better than just berating ourselves for something we can't change.


    PS a lot of anonymous' here today it seems

  20. WLIL said...

    There are obviously two types of colonisation. Colonising a barren, undeveloped land is different to colonizing a land that is already fully developed and advanced such as the present day West. An inferior system from the present East, that is worse or totalitarian or uncivilised that originated from the East or Africa that seeks to colonize a more advanced system that what we called the present day West(though not perfect and tend to be discriminative in some ways) would always cause more breakdown of societies, more hardships and cause more backwardness to the world.


  21. FreeThinke,
    the working class may very well be the last repository of Western Democratic Values -- just as Orwell illustrated in Nineteen-Eighty-Four where "The Proles" were the only element left in society who could experience life in a joyous, spontaneous fashion

    Excellent observation!

    Over the years, I have learned that the upper classes (not only in the UK, BTW) will not partner with "the proles" -- even when members of the upper classes agree with "the proles." Overall, of course, the politicians from the upper classes have been poisoned by multiculturalism and, yes, Marxism -- even when upper class folks think that they have repudiated Marxism.

    A friend of mine in the UK told me that this lack of partnering has a lot to do with an absolute refusal to support the BNP -- in large part because the BNP is perceived as an extension of the Nazi Party.

  22. Wildstar,
    Quite an astute observation you have there! Especially from one of the tender age that you are! **wink**

    the West is committing suicide, it feels it deserves it for the actions in the past

    The guilt factor does indeed play a huge part in the topic we've been discussing here.

    Personally, I refuse to accept guilt for something I didn't do.

    Years ago, in the early 1980s, a black student in fourth grade said to me, "I failed the spelling test today because your ancestors held my ancestors as slaves."


    I replied to him, "First of all, my ancestors never held any slaves. My father's family had moral objections to slavery, and my mother's family was too poor to have any slaves. Second, YOU failed this spelling test all on YOUR OWN because you didn't study."

    Back then, his parents didn't support that student for making such a ridiculous statement. But today? Parents THEMSELVES tell their children such nonsense! And, of course, many school textbooks also spout the kind of crap that the student told me those three decades ago.

    Accountability should be individual -- not collective!

  23. WLIL
    You mentioned the pertrodollars. If it weren't for oil, Islam wouldn't be threat that it is today.

    Dr. Tawfik Hamid refers to petro-Islam, which, in the view of most Muslims, signifies Islamic supremacy (paraphrase): "Allah gave us this oil, and this gift is proof that it is Allah's will that Islam dominate the world." Dr. Hamid insists that the West doesn't understand how important the will of Allah is in personal and international affairs. Multiculturalism will not allow the West to take off its blinders!

  24. Silverfiddle said:

    I don't know how anyone could think importing people of a vastly different culture would work out.

    You're bound to get conflict. It is frightening to think people did this deliberately.

    Much of the above had to do with the importation of cheap labor.

  25. Dr. Tawfik Hamid refers to petro-Islam, which, in the view of most Muslims, signifies Islamic supremacy (paraphrase): "Allah gave us this oil, and this gift is proof that it is Allah's will that Islam dominate the world."

    I would counter this, using Islamic theology, with the premise that Allah gave the world this vast reserve of oil beneath civilizationally inferior nomads because it is His Will that the only obstacle to accessing the riches of that oil be the extermination of the civilizationally inferior nomads atop it. And further, Allah is displeased with the world for not having done so already.

    You can justify all sorts of atrocious behaviors with Islam. That was its barbaric author Muhammad's point.

  26. D Charles,
    Being anti-any group is not racist just as pro-any group is not racist. People have a right within their own(hopefully sensible) reason or reasons to like or dislike any group or any individual.
    Just becaue you are a Brit, a lawyer and specialising in social justice, does not mean you are better than other individuals or groups who wish to promote their agenda that may be related to social justice. Brits that cater too much to the immigrants or foreigners is certainly not promoting any sort of justice or fairness.


  27. D Charles,

    Are you going to pick on the too many socalled moderate islamic leaders with their socalled nice moderate speech that are in reality are meant to promote their islamic agenda only? Post 9/11 was a wake up call.
    Whether the people of the West are demoralised or not, people still have a right to choose whether to be anti-islamic or anti-whatever or stay neutral.


  28. And may I add that people are free to be anti-whatever (for self-defense purposes), and as long as they don't commit any crime that are considered to be criminal.


  29. D Charles,
    the EDL are a far-right nationalist and popularist front for hate

    Such is the view of most in the upper class in the UK.

  30. I would say that 9-11 was the beginning of many 'reality checks' regarding Islam and Islamization for Westerners.

    Being an apologist for Islam is truly living in without reality; with one's head in the sand.

    And, thank you WLIL.

  31. WLIL,
    people are free to be anti-whatever (for self-defense purposes), and as long as they don't commit any crime that are considered to be criminal


    In fact, regardless of what some of the EDL's views may be about certain matters, they and the BNP are the only groups in the UK who recognize that certain Muslims are colonizing the UK. Those living in ivory towers do not realize what is happening because it isn't touching them.

  32. WLIL and Brooke,

    everyone is free to believe and even express what they think - "unless" it is encitement to hatred and collective repression.

    As I said, people supported Hitler because he said some things that people agreed with.

    The EDL is a collective, organised pack of racists whom promote hatred. That they claim to be supporting our nation is frankly a way of pretending to be for a common good. They have remained on the edge of illegality and that tells a great deal.

    As for tiresome excuse that I must be an apologist, that is frankly a childish comment on your behalf. I am neither Muslim and I do not attempt to make excuses, but I certainly point out make-believe, immature name-calling and wishfull thinking by some of you on what you "think" Islam is. I do so because I like to point out those whom are making fools of themselves, confusing themselves or simply making up stories for whatever purpose.

    As for pointing out the wrongs by some Islamic clerics - I most certainly do. I will remind you that I support lower migration (from any region), more stricter "migration contracts" (of which I have been branded by some Muslims as being racist!) and actually enforcement of deportations - which almost never actually occurs even when they are ordered by authorities.

    So simply, get real before opening your mouths, eh?

  33. Q Charles,
    The fact that Britain have been influenced by many intolerant grasping immigrants from India, Africa, Middle East and other asian racist countries, whatever religion or nonreligion they may be. But islamic people had been known to be one of the most racist tribes originated from the East. Is it right for islamic community to demand special rights, even when they are in the West? My answer would be, not only it is wrong for the islamic people to demand special rights, wherever they are, but it is also wrong of them to make use of their religion to claim special rights or make use of their religion to promote hatred, in their often oppressive pro-islamic speech. I have noted the too many fiery speech made by islamic leaders (even from socalled moderates) of all sorts. Some people may think there is nothing wrong with ordinary islamics. But I still don't like their styles. Most of the islamic leaders are not even clerics, but just ordinary islamic political leaders, but they spout so much fiery aggressive islamic religious sentiments. I think they are setting a bad example for anyone who wish to promote a more peaceful and more fairer world.


  34. D Charles,

    Furthermore, what you think islam is or is not is none of my business, so long as you don't try to harm me in any real way.
    And furthermore, I rather not involve in any type of politics that is dominated by islamics or other types of asians or eastern people. All I have is my viewpoints, that other people may agree with or not agree with. It is indeed upleasant to get abuse from islamic people or from anyone.
    If everyone do their bit to stop the rot, the world would hopefully be a more bearable place to live in.


  35. Correction on a typing omission above.

    It should be:

    It is indeed UNPLEASANT to get abuse from islamic people or from anyone.


  36. D Charles,
    people supported Hitler because he said some things that people agreed with

    True. And also true for any tyrant or power grabber.

    Over and over again, Shakespeare pointed out via the characters in his tragedies that very rarely is anyone completely evil. Human beings are complex creatures.

    Let me ask you thse questions:
    1. Which group do you condemn more -- the BNP or the EDL?

    2. Are not many in the UK concerned that immigration is destroying the culture of the UK?

    3. Are the political leaders of the mainstream political parties in the UK responsive to the will of their constituents?


    I have the feeling that if a non-Muslim lived in Luton, Birmingham, Manchester, etc., that person would grasp at any straws that claim to be willing to do something to curb the crime waves perpetrated by Muslims in those locations.

    I myself find it absolutely unacceptable that there are no-go areas in certain locations of the UK.

  37. WLIL,
    If everyone do their bit to stop the rot, the world would hopefully be a more bearable place to live in.

    If only!

  38. D Charles,
    I'm not sure that Stogie will be returning to this thread. He has been out of town and without Internet access.

  39. AOW,

    I dispise both - considering that both are bigoted and do not even try to hide it, though they attempt to "just" cover their bases by the law.

    The BNP until 2010 was an exclusive "indigenous native British Nationals only" memebership - that says everything about it. The party was created by the founders of the British National Front which was a "white only" fascist movement that had a simple manifesto which was "secure the existence of our people and a future for white children".

    The EDL was founded by Tommy Robinson and other "Luton Thugs" whom are basically football hoolligans. Robinson, whom is actually Robinson-Lennon is a convicted criminal whom was punished for violence against a number of police officers as well as cocain posession. This is public knowledge.

    As you acknowledged, crafty politicians and dictators are good at making all the right sounding phrases and so-called causes to "defend" - and so do people like Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffen (BNP leader) as well as people like Geert Wilders.

    The question we should ask is - do we support those that say these things we "want to hear" and ignore the rest of their platforms which are frankly inhumane, bigoted, illogical, hateful and in many cases stupid? Alternatively, is it taking the easy way and not the realistic way that simply has a lot more hard work to do?

    Either way, the EDL and BNP should have no place in our society.

    Equally so, there should be no place for the likes of radical Islamists demanding the unaccaptable, violence by gangs encouraged by them.

    You are aware that there are "no go" areas in London simply because of local thugs whom also are white? Stormfront, Jihad Watch, the BNP and EDL avoid pointing that out, so if your sources are those, you will not know about that.

    Football Hooliganism is almost exclusively white and fascist. The recant British Riots was totally mixed racial with, in fact, the South Asian Muslim community being particularly targetted by the thug element and commended by both the MET (London Metropolitan Police) and the Prime Minister for lowering the tension levels and standing firm to protect thier businesses as well as neighbouring ones.

    There are always many sides to every story.

  40. D Charles,

    Then, why are so many islamics, or other types of asians still continuously go to the West if you said there are white thugs? And furthermore, there are many whites who appear to be white but they are in reality mixed with another more brutal asian or black culture.
    Your claim is most shaky. And furthermore, those many asians (of various beliefs) who supported various British football teams, are NOT UK white native people or from Britain. I am nonwhite and have been to the UK and I have never encounter a white thug. On the other hand, I encountered too many hostile islamic people and other types of horrible asian people. Most people are afraid to go to any islamic countries because islamic countries are known to be risky, dangerous or unsafe or intolerant. And that is another fact.


  41. D Charles,
    The question we should ask is - do we support those that say these things we "want to hear" and ignore the rest of their platforms which are frankly inhumane, bigoted, illogical, hateful and in many cases stupid?

    I think that the following is the question to ask: What happens when the only political parties, despite their unsavory elements, responsive to issues on the ground do not respond in a manner that is just for all?

    The pendulum will eventually swing -- and swing hard. We've seen that time and time again throughout the eons of history.

    Please explain the term Football Hooliganism.

  42. WLIL,
    The classes I teach resumed yesterday, so I'm not able to participate much in this discuss that you and D Charles are having. Time constraints!

    However, I do want to comment about the following statement that you made:

    I am nonwhite and have been to the UK and I have never encounter a white thug. On the other hand, I encountered too many hostile islamic people and other types of horrible asian people.

    The above is a telling statement!

    White thugs may indeed be a factor in certain portions of the UK. But are the other thugs even more proliferated?

    BTW, when I've gone into certain sections of Washington, D.C., I have been "targeted" because I'm white. Nothing terrible has ever happened to me -- but I've seen the glares and heard the ugly comments. Never mind that I've never done anything to these people, nor have I ever disrespected them.

    I believe that race and cultural conflicts within the West are powder kegs which are going to blow sky high within this decade. **sigh**

  43. Gentlemen,
    You are free to continue your discussion here.

    But, IMO, it serves no purpose to call each other ignorant.

    Rather, I suggest that you present the facts (Provide links when possible) and, thereby, make a dent in any ignorance that either of you perceives in the other.

    Education via facts IS "the answer" to all human woes.

    I make this comment in a friendly manner and not in a way to take sides. As you both know, I do believe in an open forum. Shouting matches? Not very productive. But you are certainly welcome to continue with shouting matches -- as long as the language used isn't vulgar.

    I'll return to this thread as time allows. Getting ready to head off to work.

  44. D Charles,
    Quick answer here to your question: You are aware that there are "no go" areas in London simply because of local thugs whom also are white?

    I do know that. It's true in the United States too -- in certain "backwater" areas.

    The problem of race-based clashes is ever with us.

  45. AOW,

    Perhaps those white thugs that D Charles refered to are from mixed race or mixed culture or of certain aggressive ideology(?) or of certain imported black related culture, or influenced by other more aggressive nonwhite culture that are more prone to aggressiveness and thus are not really white in the real sense.
    By the way, I hope BNP and EDL can improve the horrible situations that is affecting alot of people in some parts of UK.

  46. AOW,

    I am really not interested to continue my discussion with a certain person here. But I will try to defend my comments whenever possible. And also, I hope you are NOT addressing to me when you were directing your announcement to 'Gentlemen' cause I am a Lady.

  47. WLIL,
    I hope you are NOT addressing to me when you were directing your announcement to 'Gentlemen' cause I am a Lady.

    My apologies.

    I was using the term in the generic sense.

    Please do defend your comments!

    Now, I'm really off to work right now after this last peek at my blog. You know how blogging is -- addictive!

  48. WLIL, am I perhaps speaking to a juvinile playing adult? With all respect, that you insist on something as basic as this mistake is rather silly.

    Islam is not a tribe, it cannot be as it is also not a race.

    Also, please write a bit more correctly as it may be your inabilility to communicate is giving yourself a foolish overtone. "Islamics" is the study of Islam - so it cannot be a trible or a race either. In otherwords, there is no such thing as an "islamics tribe".

    Now, getting back to being ignorant and arrogant about it. Get your facts straight and then we can have this dicussion as well. Until you do that, I am faced with the dilema of judging you as being either stupid or putting value to your words which in that case the value is bigoted.

    I really wonder which one we are talking about.

  49. WLILL

    Again, your way over the top with your logic.

    You said "Whatever negative point that EDL or BNP may have, they are just trying to highlight the problems that is affecting many disadvantaged people caused by intolerant immigrants from the East or Africa that demanded special privileges after special privileges given to the asian, middle eastern or black tribes in the West. "

    Though the issue is worth discussing, you are following the very sad line of "because they said the right thing that you want to hear" you have forgotten everything else about them and thus give them respect and support. As I pointed out, Hitler raised justified concerns about economics, unjust disarmament and penalties from the Versailles Treaty and got support - but does that garner respect concidering everything else? Of course not. The BNP, like most others, know there are issues and thus push them BUT their racism, thuggery, violence etc, is more then enough to ignore or even ban them.

  50. WLILL, your inexperience in many areas are showing. That you have never met a "white thug" is frankly a reflection of that lack.

    I suggest a little more research into groups like the Luton MIGs (a good example as they are not only violent football hooligans, exclusively white and in fact bred some of the original National Front members.

    Also, the term "skinhead" has obviously never come passed by you - strange for someone trying to say they know something.

    I am a Pompey supporter myself - that is Portsmouth FC to those that do not know the term. Pompey supporters are to a degree mixed but the hooligan side is also exclusively white and very violent with 12 currently in jail and their specifically target Asian shops between whatever train station they arrive from and the stadium that the match is being played. They are named after a train schedule which incidently now has to have a large police presence on match day.

    In otherwords WLILL, get real and discuss something you know about.

  51. AOW (and WLILL),

    When I find a term ignorant, I most certainly mean it and do not say so lightly. Ignorance is in this case an excuse if one wishes to point out that they do not know something. The problem is in this day an age, people providing what they think is facts but is in fact based on what they presume is most certainly a level of ignorance.

    The fact is that comments like there are no white thugs, it is the blacks, asians etc that are the problem or even the bulk of the problem in the UK is a farce. Even more wrong would be saying that it is the Muslims. They are all factors, that is for certain but you are talking to a British barrister and former Prosecutor. The reality in Britian is that there are communities with issues, high crime rates in those areas but in the greater totality of Britian it is the average original White Brit who is the thug, the burgerlar, vandal, fraudster, shoplifter and even murderer. Have you seen in the last two days the conviction of the two white "thugs" over the murder 18years ago of a Jamaican teenager? The Police and Home Office had to admit that because the victim was black that the system failed and justice had to take almost two decades.

    The media, interest groups and what I think is a very base humain nature that likes to exagerate or discriminate facts is responsible for pushing the wrong image. That does not mean there is no problems and issues, as there most certainly is, but as I always push - get the facts correct and then discuss them.

    Frankly speaking, WLILL is being naive as well as arrogantly ignorant - ie an inability to admit to not knowing the topic and making things up.

  52. AOW,

    A football hooligan is a gang culture based around football teams. It exists in most areas except the US and is particularly bad in the UK and Eastern Europe.

    I suggest you read the following links from Wiki to get a bit of an idea, it is intersting reading.





  53. AOW,

    There are most certainly no go areas for any outsider in troubled areas, that is a global reality. It is not necessary a "no white" area in those areas but more likely "no locals".

    England with London, Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester have them but we should point out that Luton has its areas and though the mix of ethnicity is 68 per cent White and 20 per cent South Asian - the rest is mixed, it is the demographics of their segregation that is the problem. That also goes for 16 per cent being Muslim, 74 per cent being Christian or no-Religion. If you go to Crawley, a depressed area but almost exclusively white - night time is a no-go for people of any mix colour. Barnfield, a more afluent area, is rather calm without mostly white but a largish mixed community has no issues at all racially but one of Britain's higher drug usage problems. Hockwell is the poor down and out area with many towers - the term tower hamlet is used, and has a larger South Asian Community. It was violent place until about 10 years ago, with good community activities it has proven to be an exception to their neighours that clash. Basically it is thug versus thug.

  54. D Charles,

    The gang culture most probably did not originated from the West. It is most probably originated from islamic culture or other eastern or african tribalistic backward culture. Western culture value individual rights and are mostly individualistic, unless threatened by an alien group. And futher more I meant islamic as islamic tribe or islamic people, who follow their islamic faith or ideology and islamic does not mean people (who are NOT of islamic faith) who study islam.
    The horrible islamisation problem is another problem caused by excesssive mulitracialist immigration policies.
    I don't make things up (another one of your delusion?). I am not a football fan. And it is none of my business which team you support, but it does get tiresome to read your stupid ignorant accussation on almost every line of your speech. D. Charlse, you said you are not of the islamic faith but you are behaving like an intolerant petty abusive islamic/moslem/muslim who go all out finding fault with almost anyone, who criticised islamic people. I am not surpirsed you would even tried to implicate a nonthug. The situation in Uk as a result of an inferior culture from the East, such as islam trying to dominate in an immature or violent manner, had gone from bad to worse. And it is frightening to see more and more people are afraid to speak up because of people like yourself tring to find fault with any people who dare to criticise the nastiness of islamics and pro-islamic people.

    I am not naive or ignorant as accused by D Charles. I have noted how horrible those ordinary islamics behaved towards anyone who opposed them. It was certainly rude of D Charles to call me ignorant too many times and it became a horrible repetitive form of abuse from D Charles. I don't mind a less ignorant person calling me ignorant but from an (wilfully?)ignorant perosn such as D Charles is just too offensive to me. I have to say I don't enjoy it coming from D Charles and not to mention it was typical of bullies like D Charles to pick on me. WLIL

  55. WLILL,

    so now your going to blame history on Islam, tks, tsk, your true dark souled colours are showing. Shomehow gang culture, be it football hooligans, or even the nazi gangs in the 1930s must all come from Islam.

    Your hypothesis of all the ugliness steaming from "the East" must also be your "islamics" (sic) not only fail in logic, history and sociology but only reflects on your own personal ugliness - nothing else.

    The word foolish comes to mind constantly - no matter how emotive. The word bigot comes secondly, there is simply no hiding the fact.

    Simply put, I pitty your warped mind.

    Provide some foundation to your logic please so that I may see how you have come to your conclussions..... no breath being held here.

  56. WLILL,

    I will add one point to a comment of yours.

    At no point do I simply have a go at anyone criticising Muslims or Islam. On the contrary, if you actually ever bothered to read what I have said (do you read?), in fact I have been targetted and called many ugly things by certain Muslims in my community.

    What I do target is foolishness, bigotry and wild mindless hate.

    By all means target radical Islamists for they are a scurge on the face of this planet, a danger to us all and hypocrits of the first order. Target the Taliban, not only for their treatment of women and their militancy and violence - but because they hypocritically consider themselves to be examples of Islam when they in fact are a hybrid of South Asian tribal customs and a half-hearted version of Wahhabism.

    Also, go ahead and target the moderate Muslim communities over here in the West whom keep their mouth shut - because it is that silence that creates a void that needs to be filled - and thus invited bigots, nationalists, populists and the sickest haters in our own community to profit from it.

    In other words WLILL, I have little tolerance for fools - or as the term goes - the arrogant ignorants and the ignorant arrogants.

  57. "The situation in Uk as a result of an inferior culture from the East"

    = text book supremicist bigotry

  58. London (CNN) -- A British woman has been charged in connection with a racist rant on a tram after a video of the apparent outburst became an online hit.

    A fellow passenger on the Croydon Tramlink in south London recorded a woman with a young child in her lap appearing to abuse travelers around her, using expletive-laden language.

    The clip was posted on video-sharing website YouTube on Sunday, where it went viral. By Tuesday morning, "My Tram Experience" had been viewed by more than 2.4 million people, and prompted angry responses both there and on Twitter.

    A spokeswoman for the British Transport Police confirmed a woman had been arrested, questioned and charged in connection with the incident.

    "Emma West, 34, of New Addington, has been charged with a racially aggravated public order offense. She is due to appear at Croydon Magistrates' Court later."

    I guess WLILL will defend this....

  59. http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/04/world/europe/stephen-lawrence-case-explained/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

    The Stephen Lawrence case is a watershed in a changing Britain. Everyone in the legal area in our country is very aware of the implications of this event. The judicial system did not adjust to the changes and it hit a large snag.

    Sadly the media was not interested in the backgrounds and similarly was late in pointing out that there are many sides to every story. The clash of cultures is understandable, the history, economics and social situations though unfair is understandable. Even the desire and need to protect existing culture is understandable. What is not, though, is that thuggary, gang-related problems, racism has existed in our Island Kingdom since the 14th century.

    It would be stupid and naive to somehow think that these problems came with immigrants, outsiders and in the case of one lunatic here, the obvious fault of Muslims and "their culture". (anyone with a bit of brain and reading knows, of course, that there is no "muslim culture" as it is a faith not a race or tribe. 56 nations, 62 distinct cultural identities, etc, etc;...

  60. D Charles,
    I looked up those two individuals you mentioned: Emma West and Stephen Lawrence.

    Fortunately, those instances are not the norm. Are they?

    Racism isn't only the domain of white people, though.

    As you know, the United States has struggled with "the race problem" for centuries. We have seen race relations improve a great deal. To the point of perfection? No! But trying to force a solution to the problem doesn't work either.

    Here in the States, "the race problem" is mostly limited to the issue of race itself -- without social-class issues also playing in. Notice that I said "mostly." In Europe, however, social-class issues also play in -- at least to some extent.

    Perhaps that's because Europe's outlook is more "tribal" than America's. America is "the melting pot," after all. In Europe, however, one can never truly be an Englishman, a Spaniard, a Frenchman, etc., unless one has the "correct" blood lines, blood lines being the correct social class ancestral line.

    Maybe it's my imagination, but I do perceive that Europeans place much value in whether or not one is "from the right class." In fact, I have a dear friend from London who evinces these views all the time, and she has been living in America for at least 35 years. She will not associate with those whom she perceives as coming from the lower class and even extending to those who aren't in the same income level as she. When her children have chosen spouses, she has looked over the prospective spouses very carefully. And they had better have high-paying jobs in the white collar professions.

    The same does apply in areas other than Europe, too, of course. Note Islamic countries. Class lines clearly drawn there too -- often based on race or national origin or tribal affiliation.

  61. WLIL,
    I am not naive or ignorant as accused by D Charles.

    I know that!

    D Charles's profession is obviously an achievement that he takes great pride in. That's fine.

    But I do wonder this: Does his high-level profession itself give him, in his own eyes, a status that allows him to judge others are not coming up to his standards and his points of view? D Charles can answer that question.

    White collar and blue collar distinctions also exist in America -- but not to the same point as in Europe. Just sayin'.

  62. AOW,

    I most certainly am playing the devil's advocate, especially when I see simple plain and obvious ignorance. Thus I will prod, poke, criticise, condemn and even play hard-ball.

    Take for instance the navie and ignorant comments such as "their nasty backward horiible culture". In this case she is referring to Islam or in her strange and illogical fashion the "islamics". As a teacher you are, obviously, aware there is no Islamic culture in the sense that she is reffering to, along with all her "the islamic tribe" which is plain nonsense.

    If she actually put some of the rubbish from her words and her personal bigotry there would be a great deal to discuss and in fact people would be suprised what I really think. She mentioned the subject the west and improving things in regards to habits of Muslims. That is very much true, as you well know, I condemn that silence and tolerance of radicals which it most certainly can be argued is a form of complicity. However, her shallow views, illogic and defenciveness neither works nor brings up any solid retort of value and thus she retorts with ignoring the points made and continuing down that ugly, dark and frankly morally repugnant route. I fear she is a lost case.

    She also defended the EDL/BNP whom many deny the holocaust and believe in white supremacy. Figures, eh?

  63. AOW,

    those examples given are rare, but relevant because racism and violence in the UK (based on racism) is about a 50/50 in regards to white/non-white. It would be wrong to consider one group over the rest. In mugging and street crime the non-White community has a larger percentage and in violent home-invasion and violent robbery it is the other side with mostly whites. White colour crime is predominantly white (follows social structure) and domestic violence is 30/30/40 based on an interesting statistic of white/asian/black. The domestic violence regarding "asian" is very disturbing of which 50 per cent is based on serious abuse by ultra-conservative Muslims but the other 50 per cent is from the non-Muslim community. This also implies that the level of abuse that people asusme is accross the board within Muslims is not the case. Aparently the UK chinese community does well with it being the lowest proportions. I will try to find the papers that I read on this in electronic format as they are from a printed legal "journal" (and I mean in a traditional newspaper journal" that most of us get once a week. Those stats are from September 2010 and June 2011.

  64. AOW,

    Racism is a global issue and in many forms and levels. I suggest you go to wiki and look up racism by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country) and it gives a pretty good picture of how it is basically in various forms global.

    We think of racism as simply blacks versus white or whites versus non-whites. The reality is that racism is about three very strong principles.

    1. Ethnic purity
    2. Power and dominance
    3. Economics

    In the end every single element of racism comes down to one of those three categories. From a legal perspective, racism is easily defined. Since I do social justice I work with accussations of racism all the time so I know the definition clearly.

    It is any form of distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent or origin for the purpose or effect of extinguishing or impairing the recognition on an equal footing the human rights and fundamental political, economic, social and cultural freedoms.
    public life

    Yes a mouth-full but it makes it unambigious and easily defined.

    We mostly see racism come out when it comes to politics, economics and inter-racial marriage. Britian has a very high rate of intermarriage and mixed race in business but still the economic disparage is high. In other regions of the world minorities suffer greatly. South America is a great example of what is possible and what is wrong. Brazil is such a mixed bag with no bars to race achieving the highest levels of office and leadership and yet the vast wealth of the country is held by the small "pure Portuguese blood" community.

    Japan, whom we can say because of the war (now 67 years later) suffered racism in the west), is amongst the most intolerant when it comes to non-Japanese leadership and inter-marriage. Yes there are Japanese whom marry outsiders but they are stigmatized and families are destroyed over the subject. The reality is that majority of Japanese would NEVER consider marrying a non-Japenese. Koreans, the largest minority in Japan are very much the second class citizen. Except for some high profile CEOs, leadership "has to be" Japanese.

    We should not forget Rawanda, the attempted genocide of one racial tribe against another. It came down to that nasty base-human trait of dominance and power.

    Though we know that our religions do not discriminate, we as Christians have accepted racism, Muslim theology is absolutely non-racism (read the story of Bilal) but yet Arabs from the region of Saudi most certainly distinguish between races and even within their own. Their slavery was not based on racism, it was based on commerce.

    It always comes down to the same three principles.

  65. correction

    It is any form of distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent or origin for the purpose or effect of extinguishing or impairing the recognition on an equal footing the human rights and fundamental political, economic, social and cultural freedoms in
    public life.

  66. DCharles,
    And you are not a lost case and not talking nonsense? I have to say that not only I disagree with your degrading, belittling, and insulting remarks towards me, but I also find your "authority" to rudely crush my comments(on this website that don't belong to you) as most offensive and disgusting. Not surprisngly, I have no respect for your comments or for you. I agree with EDL and BNP (mostly) regarding with their anti-islamisation related issues. But, why are you are trying to mislead with your comments with regard me defending them on other issues when I did not. You are certainly "good" in making things up. Not only did I have to put up with your "authority", your verbal abuse and now your immoral accussation. I have to say you are one of the most disgusting commnetator that I came acrossed on the web world, not to mention you have one of the most illogical and confusing rants.


  67. I just returned from taking Mr. AOW to the dentist and see that commenters have returned to this thread.

    WLIL said:

    rudely crush my comments(on this website that don't belong to you)

    Commenters are not to make other commenters feel unwelcome -- never mind that disagreement is inevitable. As the site owner, it is my prerogative to "crush" commenters! Thus far, I'm not "crushing" either of you. So, please extend each other that same courtesy.


  68. AOW,

    DCharles failed to see that no matter how racist or how intolerant other cultures may be, they are not forcing outsiders or anyone to submit to their culture, except for islam, which have too many negative points and too many negative impositions. It would take ages to list out all the negative impositon of islam, which you may already know.


  69. D Charles,
    I'm am not ignoring your comments about racism. Indeed, it is a topic that I've discussed all over the web!

    However, I do have to leave in a few moments to tutor a student who is homebound right now because of illness.

    I will return to this thread this evening or tomorrow.

  70. My apologies for my terse comments in this thread today. I've got to get out the door to work!

  71. AOW,
    Sorry for the error on one of my sentence above.

    It should be:

    (on this website belonging to you)


  72. AOW,

    Your blog, your rules and I have yet to tell anyone that they are not welcome, as it is not my point. That someone feels unwelcome because they have pointed exposed is simply their own problem or responsibility.

    It is interesting that I am taken as being authoritave, by definition that means they are putting value in my comments, thus I thank them.

    In a free society anyone is free to think what they like, believe what they like but must accept that individuals have an equal right to question, contradict, condemn or point out mistakes. That this should rub the wrong way to some is a great sign that their own expressions have no legs to stand on is equally obvious.

    What I find funny is that I express my view, I do most certainly get a lot of criticism and yet I cope fine. Somehow thier comments are opinions but my comments are "authoritative" and all-powerful and thus not of equal value but more!

    People are very much free to ignore my comments, but somehow they do not - I think it is because the truth is much harder to live with. That is often part of the sermon given here at St. Mary the Crowned, I think it is the Bishop's favorite.

  73. AOW,

    Obviously, one of the commentator(DCharles) above thinks that he is an "authority" on truth and that he knows it "all", but he don't. I think people are free to analyse my comments and find out the truth or find out what is really right or what is really wrong with this world.
    I just hate manipulative weird people like DCharles who seems to have a creepy eerie motive for attacking my comments. IT had been a waste of time reading his insulting remarks(hopefully his last) hurled at me.
    Anyway, thank you for the opportunity to comment on your blogsite.


  74. WLIL,
    You know that I always welcome you at my blog!

  75. AOW,

    Thank You for having me in your discussion blog.
    Actually, it has been quite tiresome trying to defend on what I may have commented and on what may have been miscontrued by "some" people.
    However I apologize if I make a mistake in typing or in my unique English or in trying to say what I was trying to say or being not specific enough due to constraints.

    I wish to point out a comment make by DCharles.
    It is puzzling as to why DCharles said that there is no such thing as islamic tribes, because the fact that islamic tribes from various nationalities or various ethnic backgrounds(whatever race or ethnic grouping or name that they called themselves or identify with) that share the same whatever ideology, same tradition, same culture, same custom, same beliefs, or share similarities in whatever, etc can be considered as a tribe. Did he meant that there is no such thing as islamic tribes or did he not believe in such things called islamic tribes?
    Anyway, it would be a waste of time for me to speculate on his comments or to refute his comments.
    That is all I have to say for now.


  76. WLIL,

    let us get down the the simple point that I am making.

    Islam is not a tribe, it is a religeous faith - that is a big difference. I was giving you the credit that it was your language but now you have proven otherwise and thus you are simply - wrong.

    A tribe is a social group mostly based on regional links and kinship.

    There are certainly tribes within the Muslim world, but their tribal status is based not on the religion but their social, logistical relationship and mostly kinship.

    What I guess your confusing, and again it would be wrong, is to assume that all or most Muslim communties and the cultures and tribes within them are similar and in your view bad, manacing, dominating, destructive, etc. That is certainly also false in many aspects. Bosnian communities share very little to say a berber community in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco who also share not much with say Muslims in southern Java. We can even point out that Berbers in Morocco share some language and cultural ties with Berbers in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya and they are all Muslim, but nothing really common.

    If anything tribalism has proven to be very much a strong trait and can even be more dominant that Islam. A very good and negative example would be Talibanism. The ugliness of the Taliban is known by all of us and most of the hard-line elements that they have shown are either tribal Saudi or local Tribal customs and does not resemble theological or pratical Islam. For instance that horrendous example of the girl found alone with a boy was punished by being raped by each member of the tribal council. The Taliban will say it was Islamic but at that time Al Qaeda (whom we can agree is also ultra-conservative) condemned it as a barbaric non-Islamic cultural practice. Most Muslim countries, including Saudia Arabia allow education and even jobs for women, the Taliban will not.

    My point is that you are wrong in both counts of there being an Islamic tribe or the implication that there is any predominant Islamic culture.

    Yes I am being hard on you, but some just need it in an attempt to educate them.

  77. DCharles,

    Islamic tribes, whether they are Taliban ro Al Qaeda or just ordinary islamic people in MIddle East, Asia, America , Europe, etc had been known to be (still?) extremely intolerant of any anti-islam speech, whenever they have a bit of power or influence.

    Other points that you brought out was IRRELEVANT.
    Therefore I am NOT wrong.

    One of the reason that I do not wish to comment about their other islamic tribal problems or their islamic political problems that is related to their whatever version of islam, because it is their islamic tribal problems and NOT my problem.


  78. Plus the fact that their their islamic tribes tend to or are prone to demand their own seperatist islamic laws(whether they implemant it fully or not or stage by stage subtlely) wherever they migrated to (or wherever their islam rule over other cultures) are also a distinct part of their islamic culture, though they may have borrowed or adapted from some cultures, from other culture.


  79. WLILL,

    each time you do raise an actual proper issue you spoil it with the rest of what you said.

    Absolutely in general tolerance to criticism of anything regarding Islam is very low. No argument there, however, everything else you said is mindless rubbish.

    1. Broad generalized superficial sweeping remarks is not only illogical, makes arguments out of context but smacks of textbook bigotry. (yet again).
    2. There are no "islamic tribes" - if you cannot communicate then why bother trying to say anything? If your talking about Muslim communities around the world, try that - not difficult eh? Mind you, with broad brush strokes your argument is still wrong.
    3. You are also very wrong and I would have to say naive if you think that every problem and issue (even the major ones) in Muslim communities and countries around the world has to always have something to do with being Muslim. That argument falls down immediately because much of the issues have to do simply with being in the developing world, corrupt states, etc, and then we have to ask about what about all the problems in the developing world in countries that are not Muslim? Context dear, please try.
    4. Lastly, even I would have assumed better from you (mistakenly so it seems) that the bad actions of a few should be labelled on and blamed on an entirity. I learned not to do that in primary school. Ideas like "creeping sharia" is an ugly myth like "Eurabia" which is done for an agenda and I find it sad that people whom attempt to pose as mature fall for such schoolyard trash, let alone push it themselves.

    A reality check, since you claim to have lived in Asia and amongst Muslims then you should know that the difference say between Muslims in Malaysia or Indonesia is huge in comparison to Muslims living in Morocco or say Tunisia. That because Malaysia has a Sharia Family Law system (subject to secular appeals court, mind you) does not make it say anything like a full Sharia Court System in Saudi Arabia. Even subtle differences show a great deal. Iran and Saudi we all agree are hard-line but yet women can drive in Iran and the niqab is illegal there but yet not the case in Iran.

    Try a bit of study, forget that terrible mistake that what you see in one place represents a totality and please base your comments on fact. When you do that, I can only respond positively and you would even get some respect.

  80. DCharles,
    I don't need to study anything about their islamic culture/ideology because I have sen too many bad examples from their islamic influences.
    I don't claim anything. I am in fact seen and noticed the unpleasant reality as a result of other people terrible mistakes and your terrible mistakes in making too many false assumptionst. Even the malay-indonesia islamic culture have alot of unpleasant similarities. And it is wrong of them to impose their totalitarian culture anywhere. You are the ones that failed to see the unpleasant reality.


  81. DCharles,

    Anyway, I DON'T need your respect or agreement to anything. I think I have enough of your nonsense and their islamic nonsense. And I have to say I DON't like the too many inconveniences imposed by thier islamic tribes. I hope there is (still?) a free world for us nonbelievers.


  82. WLILL,

    until you realize that your generalising, ignoring other abuses by non-Muslims in the world and throughout histroy then your agument only looks foolish. That has been and continues to be my point. Condemn actions for what they are and who knows, I can join you and add many examples myself.

    It is amazing in this day and age that people because of what they see automatically go into generalised hate mode. Like the rape victim whom now hates all men, though we can understand and feel for the hurt and hatred and the need for justice and retribution - the unfairness, bitterness and do-anything to condemn them all, is itself a sickness that needs to stop.

    Logic and truth is just as much a victim.

  83. DCharles,

    I DON'T ignore abuses by anyone, regardless what race or what faith they proclaimed to be or belong to. Your false presumption(again) is not only highly offensive but also disgusting. I guess another of your disgusting trait is to attack anyone who you claimed as "generalising". It is up to you to say whatever you like but don't expect me to accept your abuse. I must say your never ending insults throw at me is not only offensive but I also did not like the way you tried to victime me, who were only occassionally outspoken. must be told and whether people accept it or not is up to you or them. You are the one that is afflicted with a weird sickness. I only hope you can cure yourself of your delusions, if other people can't. My opinions had been based on observations and experience who had gone through alot of negative experience as a minority and as a disadvantaged person in a predominantly islamic country and NOT because of any sickness which you tried to push to me. It is really unfortunate that I have to go through another of your many illogical rants. I hope you know that I don't take sides, without thorough investigations, even if or whenever I criticised any group. It is up to people to analyse what is logical and what is illogical or what is appropriate and what is inappropriate and what is fair and what is unfair.
    Nobody like to be a victim of falsehood or illogival rants. I just hope that I and many others freedom loving individuals can avoid being a victim of any totalitarian ideology.


  84. WLIL,
    It is up to people to analyse what is logical and what is illogical or what is appropriate and what is inappropriate and what is fair and what is unfair.


    Discernment is required when one reads comments in an open forum such as this one.

    I'm glad that you returned to answer D Charles.

    Clearly, our own experiences shape our views -- and rightly so, in my view. All sorts of writing on paper are theories; our own experiences and observations help us to be discerning and to reach our own conclusions.

    IMO, one reason that politicians in the West are blind to the many dangers within -- not only the danger of Islam -- is that politicians are in ivory towers and consumed with theory instead of recognizing the reality on the ground. Ivory towers do fall, of course, but by then it can well be too late.


    i am also happy that she responded to my comments - if anything to confirm from what angle her argument stands for.

    As I have said time and time again, some basic arguments and views are not only understandable but can be fairly well presented. Unfortunately she does not and adds a great deal of what is clearly now, personal baggage.

    AOW you are right that personal experiences shapes us but on the other hand what brings out maturity and intelligence in people is how they can see a bit further than their street corner or simply their own experience in comparison to the larger picture.

    The bad experiences of being a minority in a Muslim community has no relevance except that experience itself. In other words, it is condemnable for the event but has no value or in fact moral right to be the example for global condemnation, sweeping generalisations and hate towards Musims as a whole. That is the crux of her problem and I will continue to point that out.

    I can see her sitting at a café with say a Moroccan Jew, a Bangladeshi Christian or a Tamil Hundu form Kuala Lumpur - all minorities and depending on their experiences will more than likely say how sad they feel for her experiences but her discriptions are over-the-top, not relevant to their situations and border-line bigotry. Most Jews that still live in Muslim countries do suffer - because of the Israel issue - but Moroccan Jews are an integral part of their country and they are proud and successful in general. Some Christian villages in Bangladesh are targeted by radicals and the government responses to that is abysmal (as with most responses to any village issue) and yet the richest Bangladeshi, most senior public servants and many scholars in that country are Bangladeshis who suffer no great issues. Malaysia is famous for its mixture of Malay, Chinese and Tamil-Hindu cultures. Some areas have had issues, but the bulk of minorities in that country prosper along with the country as a whole. Language, faith and culture are protected and enshrined in their constitution. Why I am saying this, because the reality is not sensationalised in the media but regardless is still there and it is nothing like what WLILL goes on about and stubornly cannot cope with the fact that she has been exposed, let alone questioned.

    Provide facts and realism and I can only respond with respect. A promiss given and a promiss I intend to keep.

  86. D Charles,
    In other words, it is condemnable for the event but has no value or in fact moral right to be the example for global condemnation...

    Muslims -- as do all groups -- need to understand that "global condemnation" (as you put it) is an inherent part of living in a world community when the group commits outrages.

    In my view, we all -- myself included -- should find some respect for the experiences that individuals bring to the table, regardless if we agree with those individuals.

    For example, some years ago, an atheist friend of mine on the web and I were discussing various aspects of the Christian faith. He said something that I've never forgotten: "I don't understand that faith. Let me respect that faith." Needless to say, this man and I have remained friends as we have come to an understanding that entails mutual respect.

    When political matters are discussed, the heat is sometimes even more intense than when we discuss matters of faith.

    Obviously, both you and WLIL are going to disagree. And, yes, there is going to be some animosity. So be it.

    I do find this statement of yours very presumptive and demeaning:

    it is nothing like what WLILL goes on about and stubornly cannot cope with the fact that she has been exposed, let alone questioned.

    Frankly, I don't see that WLIL has been exposed at all.

  87. AOW,

    you said you have difficulty with my statement "it is nothing like what WLILL goes on about and stubornly cannot cope with the fact that she has been exposed, let alone questioned.".

    I have no qualms repeating it and explaining why I said it - and the fact that I stand by it.

    WLIL had experiences from her life of supposive abuse by Muslims. I will not even doubt her claim that it happened.

    That she is using her experience to brand, make broad sweeping comments and condemnations based on these experiences is in itself a form of bigotry. She also paints the same picture globally and does not back away even though I have pointed out that such an accussation is baseless and without substance.

    The evidence is clear. She has been using her experience as a tool to say with substance that she knows that "islamics tribes" (sic) are forcing themselves on others, abusing, corrupting etc, etc, etc. These accussations are, as I said, without substance and baseless.

    Thus, because she does not admit the fact that she neither knows and that her experiences are simply her own, she has been - by definition - exposed. In other words, her comfortable way of abusing others in a bigoted fashion has been shown to be in fact baseless, incorrect and thus bigoted. She obviously does not like that.

    If her comments were based on truths or facts, I would have nothing to say and she could simply point out some truths and facts and shoot my argument down - she cannot because simply put she knows she is wrong.

    Secondly, if she said that I do not know but my experience is this - and thus I do not like nor do I trust "them" - I would also have not much to say other than give her examples otherwise but it is her right.

    In the end she will and has the right to believe what she likes, that is an obvious human right. Having said that, when one opens ones mouth and accusses, makes broadsweeping incorrect and frankly text-book bigoted remarks, she retains the right to that freedom but opens herself to being pointed out how wrong she is and how ugly such a view is.

    Now please, AOW, provide me with facts that my argument is incorrect and I will gladly acknowledge them - as I always do. I say this, of course, with confidence that I am correct simply because I have been to the world that WLILL is destorting and it is nothing like she is describing and that is the bottom line - a lie will always remain a lie regardless of the reason.

  88. D Charles,
    Making broad sweeping statements based on one's own experiences is not necessarily bigotry.

    According to what you've written several times, your experiences have been different. You use those experiences to paint a different picture that WLIL does.

    You strongly differ from WLIL in your views. Fine. But don't denigrate the reality on the ground; WLIL has experienced a reality that you refuse to respect or have compassion for.

    But let's consider the following possibilities:

    1. Your experiences may be different because of your gender.

    2. Your experiences may be different because of the locales you have frequented.

    3. Your experiences may be different because of your profession.

    As one who has twice been the victim of crime -- car theft and burglary, both here at home -- I know full well what suspicion of "the other" is.

    Beyond the matter of personal experience, look at the news and history.

    It is a fact that Muslims do commit most acts of terrorism today. And did you see the news recently that Muslims have committed all the rapes in Oslo in the past year?

    Honor killings, another matter that is often discussed in the anti-jihad blogosphere, are not restricted to Muslims. But as far as I can tell, honor killings are a problem among Muslims throughout the world.

    Historical fact: Islam originated in a tribal culture. Today, in many regions of the Islamic world, tribal culture does prevail; for example, loyalty to family and tribe coming before loyalty to a nation state. The matter of the ummah as the bigger picture for many Muslims is a tribal concept.


    At this point, it is probably best for you to agree to disagree with WLIL.


    In my view, you have too rosy a view, particularly in that you don't recognize the fundamental Islam is making gains (Egypt and Tunisia, for example). I have no doubt that Morocco is a wonderful place in many respects, but I'm not sure that it's representative of the entire Islamic world.

  89. AOW,

    I will agree to disagree with you on this.

    Yes my expiernces versus hers - her singlular experience versus my experiences on the ground in many areas and in many societies, including hers. Sorry, no comparison.

    We should add that my views are also based on the reality on the ground in all areas, not just her singular experience.

    Gender - I have taken into consideration gender differences and since I specialise in social justice that includes inequality and gender-bais, it still makes no difference.

    It is interesting that you mention the news, terrorism and honor-killing. If you actually study Honor-killing then you will know that it is a global problem and that most certainly it exists in Turkic-Arab society but it is even more dominant in South Asian society which includes Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh - but also India, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bhutan. India has more cases of honor/Cultural based killings, infanticide, dowry, wife-burning than any other part of the world. I find it in fact shockingly blatant the attempts to point fingers at Islam for honor-killings and it does a huge diservice and disprespect to all the larger number of victims whom happen to come from non-Muslim communities around the world.

    Yes the larger number of terror in the world is done by Muslims, that is a fact as radical Islamist groups have declared war on the rest of us. We should answer that declaration of war by simply fighting it. Now having said that, the fact that they have declared war on us IS the excuse for some, to respond instead by a declaration of war (even via propoganda) against Islam itself. Frankly, AOW, your a part of that. The existance of the anti-Jihadist bloggosphere is simply a propoganda tool for that purpose and the proof of it is by the consistant attacks on Islam itself and not just on the terrorists - the radical Islamists. How many of your self-proclaimed anti-Jihad blogs are targetting only Islamists and are not targetting Islam? I suspect zero. I will add another question since I have breached this point, how many of these blogs are also "strongly Conservative and Tea Party supporters?", how many are strongly Christian or Jewish? These are aspects of the overall propoganda push because we have fallen into the old-fashioned and out-dated method of propoganda war against a perceived threat and the easiest way to wage that war is by inlisting radicals as well.

    Back to WLILL, she is basing her views on her individual experience and basing it on a whole - I have replied with both my wider expierences, my professional experiences and with cold-hard facts of the one single factor that is being ignored here - the reality on the entire street, not just her front-door.

  90. AOW,

    I don't understand why DCharles was as (still?) is so uppity about other people or me exposing the negative effect of islamisation or the negative effect of the spread of islamic culture. I hope DCharles understand that I understood that other cultures (besides islamic culture) have its bad points too. As I said previously, DCharles is full of incoherance and inconsistencies. And now DCharles is even trying to claim my statement was a lie!! DChalres only visited as a foreigner to a few islamic countries and he is trying to calim that my comments are a lie. That is indeed proved what a horrible person DChalrs is if he really existed as a human being.
    I know what it is like to be living as disadvantaged (NONBELIEVER)
    person in a predominantly islamic countries, that gave endless special privileges to their own islamic tribes. I did not come from a rich background. DCharles obviously did not know what it is really like and tried accuse people of lying. That proved he is really a scumbag. By the way, thanks for coming to my aid.


  91. DCharles,

    What a despicable person you are to accuse me of lying when all I did was based my comments on reality and from my own experiences and my own observations. I hope your lies will be exposed not by one person but by many, many more decent people in the near future. Please accept that I understand other asian cultures too have its bad points and that I DON'T like islamic culture and it is incompatible with my nonbelieving culture. The fact that you were never discriminated by islamic people or islamic related policies says alot about your ignorance.


  92. AOW,
    Thank You for your understanding of my views. DCharles obviously did not understand my views and accused me of lying due to his ignorance and nastiness.
    I am sure other people too share your understanding of my views. And other people have similar negative experience like mine. Just that not many people dare to talk about it or refused to talk about it or have no opportunity to share it.
    DCharles seems to have this "glossy" view of certain predominantly islamic countries and refused to see other people viewpoints which saw the harsh reality. Hopefully, the majority of British people are not as ignorant as DCharles and will be able to protect and defend the real decent Western culture.

  93. D Charles,
    Now having said that, the fact that they have declared war on us IS the excuse for some, to respond instead by a declaration of war (even via propoganda) against Islam itself. Frankly, AOW, your a part of that.

    Obviously, you and I are at an impasse. Nothing that any of us type in are going to have the least impact on you.

  94. WLIL,
    I am sure other people too share your understanding of my views. And other people have similar negative experience like mine.

    You might be surprised to know that many people have an understanding of the threat of Islam -- all along the political spectrum. Our political leadership as a whole is a different matter. Living in an ivory tower enables denial of reality.

  95. AOW,

    What you said above is very true indeed. Perhaps, another reason is many people wish to avoid conflict and opt for peaceful co-existence.


  96. WLIL,
    Yes, many people do want to avoid conflict and find peaceful co-existence. I myself feel that way, but the reality I see tells me otherwise.

  97. AOW,

    Yes, I understand, that sometimes it is difficult to avoid conflict with people who wanted their way, which is NOT a better way, all the time. Furthermore, it was also wrong for DCharles to claim that I make things up. I did not make up any story as claimed by DCharles. The fact that DCharles did NOT noticed the fact that regardless whether those islamics wear islamic clothing or not, or speak different languages or whatever stage of development they are in, they still adhere to their islamic faith, which is why they are considered a tribe.


  98. AOW,

    Furthermore, I was not distorting anything, as claimed by DCharles when I tried to explain my viewpoints or was only mildly critical of islamic culture. Perhaps DCharles did not understand that I don't come from the Western world and as such I have to be more cautious in my speech or the fact that I have to cope with the limited free speech that is available in the NON-Western world. Furthermore, various people would see different reality, depending on their circumstances or whether they are in an advantaged position or disadvantaged position. Each to his or her own, but nevertheless it is good to be aware of any threat or any risk, so that one can take steps to defend oneself and precaution can be taken to improve any uncomfortable situations .