[posted by Silverfiddle]
Conversation here in the Untied State of America suffers from a lack of candor. Not in Norway.
The country’s outspoken immigration minister, Sylvi Listhaug, on the best way to help genuine refugees...Integration
‘We have a big challenge now to integrate those with permission to stay in Norway to make sure they respect Norwegian values,’ she says. ‘Freedom to speak, to write, to believe or not to believe in a god, how to raise your children.’Understanding
‘Much of the Middle East and Africa is fragile. People have difficult lives but can see via mobile phones that life in the West and in Europe is quite different. So I understand why they would like our life, our kind of standards. But it’s not sustainable to integrate so many.’Morality
‘For me it’s a moral issue as well. You can’t just help the ones you see. You have to think about the millions you don’t see and that have a very difficult life in the world.’
'...for the price of helping 3,000 young people here, we could help 100,000 children in other parts of the world.’
‘But when people travel through 20 countries to come to a safe haven, I think people can see that this is not right. You could have a safe haven in your neighbouring country, so why go so far?’
‘Why should we have a system that works for the people who have money [to pay for the journey] while the rest of the refugees and people in need don’t have the money to go?’Much of the world is broken. What is the best way to help people?
'...for the price of helping 3,000 young people here, we could help 100,000 children in other parts of the world.’
ReplyDeleteReminds me of what some parents, although not mine, used to say to their children at the dinner table:
"Eat your vegetables because children in poor countries are starving."
Non sequitur.
I disagree, I think SF is judging value for money so it makes sense to consider opportunity cost.
DeleteJez,
DeletePlease clarify.
I don't think it's a non sequitor, I think to answer the question "is $n for outcome x value for money?" you must consider "what other outcomes could I get for $n?"
DeleteJez,
DeleteWell, we disagree.
Jez,
DeleteDo you really think that 1st world nations can provide welfare benefits to the 3rd world's poor? The "leaders" of those 3rd world countries would LOVE to watch you try.
Just look how UNWRA worked out for Israel's neighbors. I'm sure it will end up much like Turkey's efforts to accomodate Syrian refugees.
DeleteTerrorism never had a better friend than European "humanitarianism".
I'm not commenting on the realism of the Norwegian minister's estimates, I'm just saying it's valid to compare the humanitarian value of accepting 3000 refugees vs investing the same money in overseas aid. If you agree with AoW that a review of what else you could buy for the same money is a "non sequitor", can explain what the phrase "value for money" means?
DeleteI saw it as Jez does. A simple statement that given two options: 1) Bring them here; 2) Help them there, #2 is cheaper and much lest disruptive.
DeleteSF,
DeleteSure. But does the United States have to be the world's nanny state?
Now *that's* a non sequitor!
DeleteBut to answer question, no it doesn't, except insofar as it is arguably a good-value component of a wider strategy for the US' own security.
Like I said, "Do you really think that 1st world nations can provide welfare benefits to the 3rd world's poor?"
DeleteIf so, enjoy watching 3rd world dictators turn into offshore Caribbean bank billionaires. So much "value" for the money!
...in other words, attempting the comparison is a non sequitur.
DeleteThe only way to "help" the 3rd world's poor is to first conquer and then assimilate them.
DeleteOnly THEN can you get your "do it over there" VALUE for the money.
DeleteColonialism formed Europe's last gasp of "global" sanity. Personally, I prefer the Federalist Papers alternative. 'F the 3rd world.
DeleteThersites and AOW,
DeleteYou guys really beat up on ol' Jez... and it was over words I quoted in the blog post.
Of course we cannot be the world's welfare office, and Jez was not suggesting that. I do suggest some foreign assistance as a first step towards putting a stop to every Tomas, Dak and Hamid coming here.
I also have to say, as Thersites suggests, I can often entertained the thought that some of these benighted S---holes could use a little benevolent colonialism, but I doubt Jez would agree with me on that.
I don't mind! I understand that we're doing different things -- I'm making a values-neutral statement about the definition of value for money, they're expressing their negative opinion of government-sponsored international aid. Sometimes it's the other way round, and it's I who just can't hold back from shooting off my opinion in response to some factual statement. I don't see any of this as aggressive or unfriendly. :)
DeleteThersites: it's not a non-sequitor, your quarrel is with the minister's estimates not the very notion of shopping around.
'The only way to "help" ... conquer and then assimilate them.'
Failure of imagination. I think there are ways of circumventing third-world corruption without enforcing imperial rule, eg. vaccination programs are IMO excellent value, and not typically intercepted by unscrupulous dictators.
Jez,
Deletevaccination programs are IMO excellent value
Something that the WHO of the UN has done well.
Jez,
DeleteI don't mind! I understand that we're doing different things -- I'm making a values-neutral statement about the definition of value for money, they're expressing their negative opinion of government-sponsored international aid. Sometimes it's the other way round, and it's I who just can't hold back from shooting off my opinion in response to some factual statement. I don't see any of this as aggressive or unfriendly. :)
Thank you for your graciousness!
:P
DeleteWant "imagination," jez? Watch an ISIS execution video.
DeleteThe third world can't compete with the productivity of the first. Those human beings "outside" of the first world global free-trade alliance have been rendered "obsolete" as a source of productive labour. They can't even participate as "consumers", as they have no means of paying for ever-cheaper first/second world automation-produced products. The "limits" of global free trade have been broached. Terrorism is the third world's last and only means of "resistance/defense". Perpetual terror and conflict has become and will remain the norm for places like Syria, southern Russia, Yemen, the African horn, and will continue to spread. Your solution isn't "values neutral" Syrian refugees in Turkey are simply the next in an ever growing line of impoverished refugees who are destined for terror operations against their hosts and neighbors (like Israel). Soon, they will be Turkey's "shock troops" used to sustain a Kurdish genocide.
DeleteUNWRA and the Palestinians have proven that people can't be paid to sit in a camp and be passive. They need hopes and goals, or they will revolt.
DeleteThey can't be kept as "the Other" forever. Multiculturalism only works until violence breaks out. And once that happens, it's the Armenian (or some other) genocide.
DeleteCultural capitalism and corresponding "foreign aid" is but a palliative placebo.
DeleteMy remarks have been values-neutral, you have read something I did not write.
DeleteAre you saying the vaccinations programs do not help?
Woohoo FJ is a neoconservative again ;)
DeleteAre you saying the vaccinations programs do not help?
DeleteSure, if you want to spread AIDS throughout Africa, as was done in the 80's.
I told you my preference beamish. The invasion option is only for those who still insist upon "doing good".
DeleteNothing help get a disease going like a centralized blood supply and a lot of contaminated needles.
DeleteIs this unsubstantiated hypothesis really the hill you want to die on?
DeleteWould anyone DARE investigate it? Where would the funding come from?
DeleteI guess the world will never know...
DeleteFor some reason, people prefer to either flee or endure their fate. Self determination is something that is in their hands and these people have to be willing to sacrifice for it. Just as we did. Granted, getting enough fellow travelers on the road to a better life and demanding change is a mighty task.
ReplyDeleteIn my view, an critical part of immigrant integration is their learning "the mother tongue" of the country where they're going to settle down -- both parents, to some extent, and the children, to a great extent.
ReplyDeleteThe sad truth of ESOL class is that they have very little effect after the first year. Total immersion is the only way to approach mastery of even the most basic level.
Surprised the subject of President Trump's State of the Union speech wasn't tackled. It was pretty clunky, and probably reads more elegantly in the original Russian. But it mostly reminded me of that campaign commercial that Hillary Clinton did where she's handing out social programs as Christmas presents (but doesn't show you the bill you're stiffed with). Trump's SOTU was so gunked up with lefty social spending galore that I really am shocked that there wasn't a Republican response after it.
ReplyDeleteTC,
DeleteSurprised the subject of President Trump's State of the Union speech wasn't tackled.
FYI...This post was queued up a while back.
Besides, there are plenty of blogosphere posts about yesterday's SOTU.
Yesterday's SOTU was fairly relevant to the immigration issue. Besides the display of government incompetence (Trump can't even keep illegal immigrants out of the Capitol building with his top ICE agent there) he promised amnesty to nearly 2 million of them. American citizens have to go to prison for job training, but not those Mexican invaders. He didn't even tackle santuary cities, much less Obamacare... yep, we get to pay for health care for illegal immigrants too...
DeleteTC,
DeleteYesterday's SOTU was fairly relevant to the immigration issue.
True.
I was just pointing out that the topic of this blog post is not the SOTU per se.
he promised amnesty to nearly 2 million of them
Not exactly amnesty because 12 years of behaving oneself seems to be one of the requirements.
Seems to be.
That's a significant time period of probation. The Dems objected to that by hissing, didn't they?
As for sanctuary cities, I've heard that something is going on with trying to put a stop to them. Something about stopping certain federal funds if I recall correctly.
Ending sanctuary cities aren't even a part of Trump's Four Pillars of Islam, I mean Immigration Reform. Even securing the border fell to #2 behind granting a pass er path to citizenship to everyone that flouted our laws.
DeleteYou know Trump isn't serious about immigration reform when he allowed illegal immigrants to deny American citizens balcony seating at his State of the Union address. Even the Mexican ICE agent Trump pointed out did nothing about them.
ReplyDeleteGrantus Pyte said
ReplyDeleteFiddle asks, What is the best way to help people?
Here are a couple of clues:
"All this struggling and striving to make the world better is a great mistake; not because it isn't a good thing to improve the world, if you know how to do it, but because striving and struggling is the worst way you could set about doing anything."
"This is the true joy in life, the being used for a purpose recognized by yourself as a mighty one; the being thoroughly worn out before you're thrown on the scrap heap; the being a force of Nature instead of a feverish, selfish little clod of ailments and grievances complaining that the world will not devote itself to making you happy."
~ G. B. Shaw (1856-1950)
Clement Sligh Trumbull said
DeleteI knew they'd never get it, Pyte. No one seems able to draw logical inferences anymore. This lack of imagnation and critical thinking skills will be our undoing,
It's a shame.
The basic premise has merit. If you can't offer employment and education you aren't going to get very far trying to integrate immigrants.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of economic migrants a better strategy may well be economic investment in development if you can get past the corruption (on both ends).
Her premise lso hides a more insidious view of the issue. By promoting a negative view of immigrants ability to assimilate you contribute to the idea becoming self fulfilling.
To listen to him last night you'd think MS13 are the only hispanic immigrants in the U.S. Playing up the fears.
Never mind that our own useless wars in the mideast and our own drug use are huge contributors to the problem, it's easier to just see the immigrant as "other" than craft a workable compromise.
Yeah, it's a real shame that in eight years Democrats couldn't give the Immigration issue five minutes. All Obama could manage was an Executive (Don't ask don't tell-esque) Order on the subject.
Delete...Like we really need the federal government to tell itself when it should ignore its' own laws.
Delete:P
DeleteHere's something to consider:
ReplyDeleteRemittance Flows Worldwide in 2016 $138,165,000,000 in remittances was sent from United States to other countries in 2016.