Duck, Where is O.T. law in force today with the kind of barbaric enforcement of shari'a that we see in the Middle East right now in the 21st Century?
At any rate, since Islam does not recognize the divinity of Christ it is obvious that the Gods of the two religions are not identical.
And Allah and the Judeo-Christian God are not the same God. How many times have we heard people say that they are the same, that we all worship the same God? They are not!
By Judeo-Christian standards, Islam is paganism -- as is Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.
The fact that the West has been able to outgrow the curse of the O.T. doesn't change the fact that the religions of the middle east share much of the same sources.
Jews and Christians have been fortunate enough to be relatively free of the like of Wahhabism and have been able to embrace the world.
What Canardo fails to recognize, and apparently does not want to understand, is that the Renaissance and the Enlightenment could never have developed as they did had Christianity -- even in its admittedly corrupted forms not provided the BEDROCK on which Western Civilization was built.
We would have preserved none of he scholarship from the ancient Greeks or other past civilizations had it not been for the Church. We would likely have remained illiterate were it not for the Church. Also the development of our glorious Music, Art and Architecture would not have proceeded as it did without the influence and the patronage of the Church.
I don't believe the Enlightenment meant to be an assertion of ATHEISM, rather it served as a means of REFORMING and REFINING our understanding of Christ's Word by interpreting it through a more humanistic prism.
Competing theories regarding the Abrahamic faiths?
"Far be it from Allah to have begotten a son."
Abraham was a person in history. We all agree on that fact.
But Allah has no identifiable link with Jews nor Christianity. The Qur'anic ayat make that very, very clear. Allah is the god of Muslims, and not the God of any other demographic. He is "strong" against unbelievers (which is all the rest of us).
Sorry Tammy, the only mention of Abraham's existence is Genesis. It is much closer to myth as is the Exodus story and the fall of Jericho than any archeological reality.
The O.T. God is not also "strong" against unbelievers?
Duck, As you know, the archaeological record neither proves nor disproves the existence of Abraham. Time and climate have a way of erasing footprints, you know.
Abraham is not present in the archeological record or any other recorded record. Just a way of saying that belief in the O.T. is strictly a matter of faith. Empirical methods are in conflict with faith.
Duck, Empirical methods are in conflict with faith.
Not necessarily. Two different "methods." Sometimes they intersect, sometimes not. And sometimes empirical evidence shows up later to "prove" faith. Not that faith can be proven -- it's a soul thing.
Didn't Abraham beget HAM by one of this servants or concubines, and wasn't Ham BLACK, and wasn't Ham supposed to have provided the rootstock for Islam?
I probably have that a bit screwed up, because I posted without looking it up, but, as I recall, "something like that" is mentioned in the Bible.
Corrections, emendations and polite forms of discussion are welcome
WHOOPS! I did get it wrong. Ham was a son of NOAH not Abraham.
Here's WIKI to clear it up for us:
The Curse of Ham is a misnomer for the curse upon Canaan that was imposed by the biblical patriarch Noah. The narrative occurs in the Book of Genesis and concerns Noah's drunkenness and the accompanying shameful act perpetrated by his son Ham the father of Canaan (Gen. 9:20–27). The controversies raised by this story regarding the nature of Ham's transgression, and the question of why Noah cursed Canaan when Ham had sinned, have been debated for over two thousand years.
The story's original objective was to justify the subjection of the Canaanites to the Israelites, but in later centuries, the narrative was interpreted by some Muslims, Jews and Christians as an explanation for black skin, as well as slavery. Nevertheless, most Christian denominations and all Jewish denominations strongly disagree with such interpretations because in the biblical text, Ham himself is not cursed and race or skin color is never mentioned.
Democracy Now! had a very good segment featuring a pre-Islamic regional art historian. ISIS has been involved in a black market for mid East antiquities for some time now and the only reason these larger works were destroyed is that they can't be sold.
Also by destroying these works ISIS is destroying the pluralist history of the area and that may be the most serious crime. That history has existed and been respected for thousands of years. The insanity of ISIS is a relatively recent manifestation and viewing Islam as monolithic is going to block our understanding of the origins of this barbarism and how to combat it.
Duck, ISIS has been involved in a black market for mid East antiquities for some time now and the only reason these larger works were destroyed is that they can't be sold.
True!
ISIS is not such a recent manifestation. Go back through the history of Islam. I cannot imagine that you are ignorant of that history. Of course, what is different is the weaponry and the technology.
World War Muslim is up and running now, Duck. What I so worried about is transpiring. What will it take to stop this juggernaut?
I have a fatwa on file from Egypt which speaks of destroying statues. This information can also be found in the Seerah (biography) of Muhammad.
The jurisprudence of Sayyed Ali al-Sistani (the grand old Ayatollah of Najf) forbids playing chess, because the pieces have facial features. I had the book on file, until I loaned it out.
What Islamic State is doing is based on jurisprudential tradition. I cannot wait to see what they do when they get their hands on the Vatican treasures.
Duck, It isn't out of the question that Dubai will devolve. More and more of the ummah are "signing onto" ISIS -- and I don't mean only physically signing on.
Tammy, what they [will] do when they get their hands on the Vatican treasures
You and I both know what is going to happen. ISIS will infiltrate Rome -- and other museums in the West, too. Will the outrage on the part of the West then begin? I doubt it. The West is filled with dhimmis and deniers. **sigh**
Well, AOW, I've read a number of comments on right wing blogs about using a "Hiroshima" solution so clearly many have no more respect for this history than ISIS.
I believe the best hope is to starve them economically.
To do that you need cooperation from Muslim states. Right now they are being contained militarily and that will likely continue.
The issue of interdiction of travel to Syria brings up issues but I'm at the point where anyone blogging "jihad" is committing a criminal incitement and is subject to arrest.
What concerns me most is the possibility of indiscriminate military action with absolutely no consideration for collateral damage. Sure to fail and generate a wider cataclysm.
We got into this because we let the Iraqi and Afghani governments become rancid corrupt entities that are in many ways worse than what preceded. It's going to be difficult to resolve that.
Duck, Can we starve them economically fast enough? Before untold damage within the West comes down on our heads? I am concerned that lone wolf ISIS attacks within the West are going to become more and more frequent -- and might even kill or maim someone near and dear to our hearts (i.e., family, friends).
I'm at the point where anyone blogging "jihad" is committing a criminal incitement and is subject to arrest.
Nonsense! Curtailing freedom of expression is a slippery slope. Furthermore, the jihad is real. It exists. Denial and ostriching will not work to combat what's afoot.
As for collateral damage, that is a concern. But are you willing to sacrifice your niece so that there would be no collateral damage?
I favor dropping an Iron Veil and banning Muslim immigration into the West for 5-10 years. Some repatriation would also be a good step. For every act of atrocity, repatriate 1000 non-citizen Muslims living in the West. Draconian measures are needed to combat what's going on -- and what's going on is coming our way here in the United States. The wider cataclysm is already here! World War M.
We welcome civil dialogue at Always on Watch. Comments that include any of the following are subject to deletion: 1. Any use of profanity or abusive language 2. Off topic comments and spam 3. Use of personal invective
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.
It's time to play SUBLIMINAL SCRABBLE. Rearrange the letters in the first phrase to uncover it's subliminal doppelganger...
ReplyDeletePRESBYTERIAN:
BEST IN PRAYER
ASTRONOMER:
MOON STARER
DESPERATION:
A ROPE ENDS IT
THE EYES:
THEY SEE
GEORGE BUSH:
HE BUGS GORE
THE MORSE CODE:
HERE COME DOTS
DORMITORY:
DIRTY ROOM
SLOT MACHINES:
CASH LOST IN ME
ELECTION RESULTS:
LIES - LET'S RECOUNT
SNOOZE ALARMS:
ALAS! NO MORE Z'S
A DECIMAL POINT:
I'M A DOT IN PLACE
THE EARTHQUAKES:
THAT QUEER SHAKE
ELEVEN PLUS TWO:
TWELVE PLUS ONE
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA
An Arab Backed Imposter
That is so effing brilliant, FJ, it makes me tremble with humility and awe.
DeleteI checked it for accuracy, and by Gosh, President barack Obama really IS "An Arab Backed Imposter."
The only flaw is that IMPOSTOR is spelt with two O's and contains no E.
BOO HOO!
§;-D=
Competing theories regarding the Abrahamic faiths.
ReplyDeleteIslam differs so much from Abrahamic faiths that I wouldn't label Islam an Abrahamic faith.
DeleteMy two cents.
I think you hold a minority position, AOW.
DeleteSharia is not far from O.T. law.
At any rate, since Islam does not recognize the divinity of Christ it is obvious that the Gods of the two religions are not identical.
Duck,
DeleteWhere is O.T. law in force today with the kind of barbaric enforcement of shari'a that we see in the Middle East right now in the 21st Century?
At any rate, since Islam does not recognize the divinity of Christ it is obvious that the Gods of the two religions are not identical.
And Allah and the Judeo-Christian God are not the same God. How many times have we heard people say that they are the same, that we all worship the same God? They are not!
By Judeo-Christian standards, Islam is paganism -- as is Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.
The fact that the West has been able to outgrow the curse of the O.T. doesn't change the fact that the religions of the middle east share much of the same sources.
DeleteJews and Christians have been fortunate enough to be relatively free of the like of Wahhabism and have been able to embrace the world.
Duck,
DeleteOutgrow?
Jesus brought a new covenant, which was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant.
The laws of the O.T. were mirrors which were to show people that they needed a Savior. Nobody -- but nobody -- can always keep the law.
Being fortunate isn't why Jews and Christians don't go around acting like the ISIS savages.
As for sharing sources, Mohammed "adapted" what he knew of from Judaism and Christianity. Plagiarism, some say.
Yes, the west has had the benefits of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.
DeleteDuck,
DeleteMuslims have been exposed to those benefits, too. Many Muslims rejected those benefits, didn't they?
What Canardo fails to recognize, and apparently does not want to understand, is that the Renaissance and the Enlightenment could never have developed as they did had Christianity -- even in its admittedly corrupted forms not provided the BEDROCK on which Western Civilization was built.
DeleteWe would have preserved none of he scholarship from the ancient Greeks or other past civilizations had it not been for the Church. We would likely have remained illiterate were it not for the Church. Also the development of our glorious Music, Art and Architecture would not have proceeded as it did without the influence and the patronage of the Church.
I don't believe the Enlightenment meant to be an assertion of ATHEISM, rather it served as a means of REFORMING and REFINING our understanding of Christ's Word by interpreting it through a more humanistic prism.
Competing theories regarding the Abrahamic faiths?
ReplyDelete"Far be it from Allah to have begotten a son."
Abraham was a person in history. We all agree on that fact.
But Allah has no identifiable link with Jews nor Christianity. The Qur'anic ayat make that very, very clear. Allah is the god of Muslims, and not the God of any other demographic. He is "strong" against unbelievers (which is all the rest of us).
Tammy
Sorry Tammy, the only mention of Abraham's existence is Genesis.
DeleteIt is much closer to myth as is the Exodus story and the fall of Jericho than
any archeological reality.
The O.T. God is not also "strong" against unbelievers?
Tammy,
DeleteExactly!
Duck,
DeleteAs you know, the archaeological record neither proves nor disproves the existence of Abraham. Time and climate have a way of erasing footprints, you know.
Abraham is not present in the archeological record or any other recorded record.
DeleteJust a way of saying that belief in the O.T. is strictly a matter of faith.
Empirical methods are in conflict with faith.
Duck,
DeleteEmpirical methods are in conflict with faith.
Not necessarily. Two different "methods." Sometimes they intersect, sometimes not. And sometimes empirical evidence shows up later to "prove" faith. Not that faith can be proven -- it's a soul thing.
Didn't Abraham beget HAM by one of this servants or concubines, and wasn't Ham BLACK, and wasn't Ham supposed to have provided the rootstock for Islam?
DeleteI probably have that a bit screwed up, because I posted without looking it up, but, as I recall, "something like that" is mentioned in the Bible.
Corrections, emendations and polite forms of discussion are welcome
WHOOPS! I did get it wrong. Ham was a son of NOAH not Abraham.
DeleteHere's WIKI to clear it up for us:
The Curse of Ham is a misnomer for the curse upon Canaan that was imposed by the biblical patriarch Noah. The narrative occurs in the Book of Genesis and concerns Noah's drunkenness and the accompanying shameful act perpetrated by his son Ham the father of Canaan (Gen. 9:20–27). The controversies raised by this story regarding the nature of Ham's transgression, and the question of why Noah cursed Canaan when Ham had sinned, have been debated for over two thousand years.
The story's original objective was to justify the subjection of the Canaanites to the Israelites, but in later centuries, the narrative was interpreted by some Muslims, Jews and Christians as an explanation for black skin, as well as slavery. Nevertheless, most Christian denominations and all Jewish denominations strongly disagree with such interpretations because in the biblical text, Ham himself is not cursed and race or skin color is never mentioned.
Speaking of the archeological record...
ReplyDeleteISIS thugs take a hammer to civilisation: Priceless 3,000-year-old artworks smashed to pieces in minutes as militants destroy Mosul museum.
Gone forever!
Democracy Now! had a very good segment featuring a pre-Islamic regional art historian.
DeleteISIS has been involved in a black market for mid East antiquities for some time now and the only reason these larger works were destroyed is that they can't be sold.
Also by destroying these works ISIS is destroying the pluralist history of the area and that may be the most serious crime.
That history has existed and been respected for thousands of years. The insanity of ISIS is a relatively recent manifestation and viewing Islam as monolithic is going to block our understanding of the origins of this barbarism and how to combat it.
Duck,
DeleteISIS has been involved in a black market for mid East antiquities for some time now and the only reason these larger works were destroyed is that they can't be sold.
True!
ISIS is not such a recent manifestation. Go back through the history of Islam. I cannot imagine that you are ignorant of that history. Of course, what is different is the weaponry and the technology.
World War Muslim is up and running now, Duck. What I so worried about is transpiring. What will it take to stop this juggernaut?
I have a fatwa on file from Egypt which speaks of destroying statues. This information can also be found in the Seerah (biography) of Muhammad.
ReplyDeleteThe jurisprudence of Sayyed Ali al-Sistani (the grand old Ayatollah of Najf) forbids playing chess, because the pieces have facial features. I had the book on file, until I loaned it out.
What Islamic State is doing is based on jurisprudential tradition. I cannot wait to see what they do when they get their hands on the Vatican treasures.
Tammy Swofford
Odd that the world speed chess championship was held in Dubai.
DeleteDuck,
DeleteIt isn't out of the question that Dubai will devolve. More and more of the ummah are "signing onto" ISIS -- and I don't mean only physically signing on.
Tammy,
Deletewhat they [will] do when they get their hands on the Vatican treasures
You and I both know what is going to happen. ISIS will infiltrate Rome -- and other museums in the West, too. Will the outrage on the part of the West then begin? I doubt it. The West is filled with dhimmis and deniers. **sigh**
PS: And Greece too.
DeleteWell, AOW, I've read a number of comments on right wing blogs about using a "Hiroshima" solution so clearly many have no more respect for this history than ISIS.
DeleteDuck,
DeleteLet's hear your plan.
I'm not endorsing a "Hiroshima" solution, but the situation might come to that.
I believe the best hope is to starve them economically.
DeleteTo do that you need cooperation from Muslim states.
Right now they are being contained militarily and that will likely continue.
The issue of interdiction of travel to Syria brings up issues but I'm at the point where anyone blogging "jihad" is committing a criminal incitement and is subject to arrest.
What concerns me most is the possibility of indiscriminate military action with absolutely no consideration for collateral damage. Sure to fail and generate a wider cataclysm.
We got into this because we let the Iraqi and Afghani governments become rancid corrupt entities that are in many ways worse than what preceded. It's going to be difficult to resolve that.
Duck,
DeleteCan we starve them economically fast enough? Before untold damage within the West comes down on our heads? I am concerned that lone wolf ISIS attacks within the West are going to become more and more frequent -- and might even kill or maim someone near and dear to our hearts (i.e., family, friends).
I'm at the point where anyone blogging "jihad" is committing a criminal incitement and is subject to arrest.
Nonsense! Curtailing freedom of expression is a slippery slope. Furthermore, the jihad is real. It exists. Denial and ostriching will not work to combat what's afoot.
As for collateral damage, that is a concern. But are you willing to sacrifice your niece so that there would be no collateral damage?
I favor dropping an Iron Veil and banning Muslim immigration into the West for 5-10 years. Some repatriation would also be a good step. For every act of atrocity, repatriate 1000 non-citizen Muslims living in the West. Draconian measures are needed to combat what's going on -- and what's going on is coming our way here in the United States. The wider cataclysm is already here! World War M.
Let's KISS [Keep It Simple, Stupid ;-]
ReplyDeleteALLAH and SATAN are ONE and the SAME.
ALLAH is BEELZEBUB - The FIEND of All FIENDS.
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
FT,
DeleteI happen to agree.
If I am not mistaken, in the Quran there is a passage like this: "Allah said, "I am the great deceiver.'" The great deceiver = Satan.