He's not wrong. I wonder why we are not seeing a reaction to this truth by the "silent majority" on the right ... ? Have the British and most of Europe become sock puppets?
He talks well but in fact that is all. He is not questioning Islamism he is targetting Islam in the typical self-congratulating and self-proclaimed anti-Jihadist group of bloggers.
Using big words, cut & paste when it comes to chosing to send the messsage and contextual abuse neveer in the end works. It is that simple and that is why he is fringe, considered fringe by academica and the political establishment.
The problem is that he detracts from the real issues that are faced today by both the Muslim world and us in the west that are targetted by extremists and deadly jihadists.
By attacking the faith itself in a simply pathetic and unprofessional manner not only fails but makes the case look laughable.
Supporting the silent majority within the Muslim world with improving rights, education and dealing with the secular side works. What also works is by supporting and encouraging the non-radical and at present pathetically silent western Muslilms to beecome more vocal and more integrated.
Damien, Actually, I wouldn't classify Pat Condell along with typical anti-jihadists. He's an atheist and often criticizes Christianity, too. You can read more about Mr. Condell and Wikipedia and elsewhere.
It seems to me that the silent majority within the Muslim world has had ample opportunity to be more vocal and more integrated, particularly since 9/11. So, why the silence? Maybe because they are searching for the will of Allah and actually believe that the will of Allah does mean fundamentalist Islam.
I would agree that the issue is why there is not this great demonstration against barbarities.
That is answerable though. It certainly is not Freedom's reasoning that it is because the faith demands it - not at all, because that is proven by the fact that it does not happen in most, if not the majority of Muslim countries. We can say for example that only 13 of the 56 Muslim nations have all or some of these practices, why is that? Why is it that when these horrors occur, countries like Morocco, Tunisia and Turkey splash it in the news and people are outraged?
The problem always comes down to illitracy, education in general and the historical rule of not condemning clerics or the subject of faith. Our world has secularised and education has forced the discussion of what the old ugly way - in some cases we have only just choked off this problem but you try and condemn my Catholic practices in the Pyrennes or in the Mountains in north Italy and you will see the hushed silence.
We forget the Muslim world's vast population is in the developing world, with huge illitarcy and often the education and news system is through Mosques and Maddrasas. Blasphemy is still a key issue (or excuse) in half the countries and though poverty and education is a real and important factor - obviously it has to change if they are to catch up.
My point is that the bloggosphere, antit-Jihadists and Condell - if he is one or not - looks for the simple answer and in this subject has rather cut & pasted his way which means he failed the context rule.
Damien, I will agree with you that the topic of Islam (in all its various manifestations) is complex.
That said, the objections to anti-shari'a legislation are disturbing. If Muslims are to integrate in Western society, certain aspects of shari'a will have to be abandoned.
I'm sure that you've seen some of the posters carried in the streets by Muslims in the UK: "Behead those who insult Islam," etc. Where are the Muslims out in the street to object, along the lines of those who here in the United States have objected to the vile doings of Westboro Baptist Church?
Make no mistake: I have no objection to the followers of any religion adhering to that faith -- but only if they don't interfere with my freedoms. I object to those who gripe about the aroma emanating from my pork roasts (Muslims, Jews) and my grilled hamburgers (Buddhists). Now, nobody has objected to any of my grilling; in fact, the Buddhist's wife, not a Buddhist, would come over and eat the hamburgers with me. But you must be aware of the stories of Muslim clerks refusing to handle pork in the market checkout stand (United States) and of Muslims objecting to the aroma of bacon (UK).
In fairness, I must say that the best barbecue in town is that of Hassan's place. He handles and serves pork -- and has pig statues all over the place. Now, there's a Muslim who understands freedom in America! See THIS and THIS.
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Yes, illiteracy is an issue in the Islamic world. But many jihadists are not illiterate.
It is interesting that the examples you give are of those radical Muslims in the West and that in itself explains the reality that is so often forgotten or in many cases ignored.
Take for example certain groups in the UK. They claim and demand so many things, banning christmas decorations in streets with many or a majority of Muslim shops. Ironically, and kept quiet by them, most Muslim countries actually go out of their way to put up christmas directions in shopping centres and sell blow-up santas - why is that? These radicals want Sharia courts in Britain and the liberal niceness in the country sort-of gives in to it but such courts do not exist in many Muslim countries which take their secular legal system very seriously, again why is that?
There is a growing term called "Euromuslim" which refers to radical european muslims whom push for a level of Islam within europe that often exceeds what is actually accepted in most of the actual existing Muslim world.
I live in Gibraltar and thus I hop over to Morocco regularly for work and weekends. They sit in amazement when they see these euromuslims demanding things and call them h'muk which means in their language "stupid".
My argument which I tried to push here comes down to one simple thing. When blaming radicals many people are blaming instead Islam. You use the Westboro example and thus we can argue that there are way to many Westboro types in the Muslim world and they do get their support from the illiterates - as the support base - but do we blame Christianity for the Westboro type, no, yet they claim God, Jesus and the Bible as their source! So it is with radical Muslims and the Jihadists, and thus when I see the response as "Islam this and Islam that..." I consider it to be what Martin Luther King Jr said was the most foolish of people - the "arrogant ignorant" ie, those that arrogantly push something based on their own ignorance.
Damien, We have had some incidents here in the United States with Muslim cabdrivers (Somalis?) who balked at transporting guide dogs and fares carrying liquor and with store clerks who didn't want to handle pork products.
These radicals want Sharia courts in Britain and the liberal niceness in the country sort-of gives in to it but such courts do not exist in many Muslim countries which take their secular legal system very seriously, again why is that?
I'm not sure why. The influence of hardline imams, perhaps.
You tell me: Why are "Euromuslims" so belligerent?
As for Westboro Baptist Church, I don't know that the members are illiterate exactly. But they are a very closed community. Many Christian groups have objected to WBC. And the numbers in WBC are small. I suppose that some atheists do see WBC as proof that Christianity is intolerant; I know that secularists do ridicule individuals such as Harold Camping, the fellow who claimed that Rapture Day was a particular date this past May. I happened to attend a secularist convention and heard the ridicule for myself. Clearly, these secularists think that ALL Christians are ignorant. I do know many illiterate Christians who don't hold with WBC or Harold Camping.
The fact remains that jihadist Muslims do use Islam as the basis for their deeds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that Morocco is somewhat unique in its cosmopolitan approach.
More to say, but it's time for me to retire for the night.
WLIL, As you can see, Damien and I are having a reasoned discussion.
Don't misunderstand: I don't agree with much of what Damien is saying.
The issue of Islamic supremacism is THE issue regarding the threat that Muslims pose within Western societies.
In the United States, we have people of all faiths. But people of all threats aren't rioting over the doings and sayings of the likes of Terry Jones, who got into a lot of difficulty in Dearborn yesterday or the day before. Now, one can make the case that Terry Jones is saying and doing things that Muslims find blasphemous; but in the United States, religious blasphemy isn't an excuse for retaliation.
I never said that illiteracy is the problem but it is a large factor. It provides the "mass support" or "the mob".
My thoughts on why Euromuslims have so much influence has to do with history and politics. They started coming in the mid 70's as "poltical refugees" which was a way that western governments could "slap in the face" for colonies by saying that they "were abusing and we all know it". It backfired badly because those that were in trouble and escaped were the radicals that crossed the line. Now some almost 40 years later they are well imbedded and they have a second generation whom are often well educated, lawyers and civil servants. Some are even support bases for terrorists.
This group also, as in the UK, were the ones who pushed for mass family migration and thus allowed thousands of semi-literates mostly from rural or poor areas to come and they have an immediate following. Politicians are to a degree intimidated, want their vote and with the EU system, must be "supported and cared for".
I do not consider supporters of Westbro or other extreme evangelical groups to be illitrate, I did not say that, that is why their following is small, but they get their attention and noise from other methods. The point I tried to make is that you get the ugly groups and they attempt to dominate, you get those who fight them demonizing (and thus giving more headlines to) them and the problem grows.
What needs to be done is perspective and context and that is what has failed the most. The reality is that there is a huge number of Muslims all around Europe, Americas and Australia that outnumber and do not want to be associated with radicals and they are not vocal which is also wrong. They have integrated very well and that is why they can hide. They need to be encouraged to speak out and be supported to the hilt to turn the "mob" fro supporting the radicals.
Again, my "beef" is people targetting the entire faith rather than those within it, with lines here like "these muslims", or "Islamic nonesense". That neither makes sense and for me smacks of ignorance.
A last comment, supremecy is political every faith believes it is the one and only true representative of God so the texts reflect that. I am a Catholic so you see my faith as a good example. But social-psychologically speaking, supremecy is a political and social example of power. Do not forget the term American-Exceptionalism to the rest of the world sounds rather "supremicist" and unless your an American will never be appreciated. It is logical that radical Islamists will go on and on about supremecy just as much as when a non-Chistian tries to talk to an evangalist, those rolling eyes and little put-downs begin to start.
As for Morocco, it is unique and yet it is not. It is the best example of freedoms and yet allowing faith to be there, but it is not alone. Tunisia is almost the same, Algeria would be except for its corrupt government, Libya even though in war and the dictatorship of Ghaddafi is in fact pretty much the same. Beirut is a mix, you can be as liberal as you like but if you bump into Hezbollah your screwed. Half if not 3/4 of Jordan is great - I lived there for two years - Malaysia is mostly Muslim and pretty much a fantastic place, Turkey is even more so.
These are great examples of what the real Muslim world is like and most of the problems stem from lack of education, economics, post-colonial hang-ups and from these the ability to leave the shadow of the "old-world" that is unable to challenge the clerics to prove their points.
The head of the Algerian Protestant Church Association (EPA) – to which the majority of Algerian churches belong – received a notice, dated 22 May, from a High Police Commissioner informing him that a decision had been made to close down all Christian places of worship throughout the country that are not designated for religious purposes.
Most church buildings have not been officially designated because it has proved impossible for them to obtain registration from the authorities following stringent regulations introduced in 2006, which were designed to restrict the religious activity of non-Muslims....
Morocco - I am actually dissapointed in the efforts of the media including BBC this time. The night of the King's Speech there was in fact more of the population celebrating in the streets than the protesters in Casablanca and Rabat. In Marrakesh they almost did not turn up. The media want to believe that this is part of the Arab Spring when it is not, reform has been going slow and steady over the last 11 years with the new King. There is always a certain element that do not agree and the media are only talking to them. Al Jazeera English only spoke to a "Moroccan Journalist" from California who admitted that he has not been in that country for 8 years - he actually is only a blogger.
The item you selected by this Anti Jihadist is to put it bluntly, pure utter rubbish and thus most certainly deserves to be on the a similar website. Looking at his profile, he is a nutjob, pure and simple. His, like Spencer, is self-congratulatory tripe with constant cutting & pasting, no context what so ever.
Have you noticed all the self-proclaimed antiJihadists work only within their own grouping, quote from each other and do the repeat, wash, rinse and repeat cycle?
Algeria is a sad case, corrupt and could have been spectacular but failed. It suffers with a certain Islamist group. The item you quoted is sad but I would have to see references because even that is over the top for Algeria. Did you get it from one of "those" blogs or an actual credible source. I was there about four months ago, I attended Church both in Algiers and Oran and the community seemed happy and strong enough considering the political problems there.
Turkey - there is a small but vocal "hard-line" community in Turkey and they are being watched by both the government and the media. Do not confuse the current governments references to "Islamism" which actually mean something different. Also the anti-Jihadists like to think that because the party wants Islam to be more open and not hidden that it means some take-over, that would be totally wrong. What in fact the party is pushing is a readjustment to return to a balance between the secular demands of society but without the past hiding or supression of the natural Islamic faith of its population. It should also be noted that the typical Turkish practicing of Islam is very liberal, moderate and more open to questioning. Look up Sufism, as a good portion of the population is such. I did a study on Islam in Turkey about 14 years ago as part of an extra History Degree.
I know is long - as all my postings tend to be - but I will mention the confusion over the world "Islamism". Islamism means "political Islam" but can have a huge number of variables and variations within it. There is no one version of Islamism.
In its purist sense, it is identical to Zionism which is "political Judaism" - in other words incorporating Judaism into natural politics and it also has a huge variety of versions.
Most certainly Islamists claim to represent or have a goal of Islamism but so does, for example, the Turkish PM and the Malaysian Opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim. They explained on CNN that they are part of a modern liberal varient of Islamism and say it is feasible to have that within a modern society. They both condemn Islamists, terrorists and extremism. I found this interesting. If anything it reminds me of the philosophy of socialims and communism and there were peaceful, if not pacifists amongst them and yet under the same ideology we goto Stalin, Mao and Castro.
Malaysia - I forgot, has some extremism, is not going "that way" as the Constitution protects the large Chinese buddish/Christian and Indian Hindu communities. There are always issues but that is normal in a multi ethnic society, that happens globally.
The item is bogus. You can be suspicious from many grounds. The first is that is on Faith Freedom which is just another agenda based hate cite. Second, there is no source of the item, just quotes. A real newsitem would say the head of the organisation's name. Third the term "high commissioner of the police authorities" does not exist and is mindless rubbish. The head of the police in Algeria is the Direct General of the Surete Nationale. The term "high commissioner" is very Anglophone and normally with with us in the Commonwealth countries. I can add more but I tend to write in length.....
It was quite interesting following your discussion with Damien. Again, I have to disagree with Damien. Malaysia is not a great place, as it is even most uncomfortable and a difficult place to survive in for a poor nonbeliever like myself who have nothing in common with them and who want to avoid their ever creeping unpleasant totalitarian islamic culture. There is a lot of ignorance on Damien part. Damien seems to imply that islamic supremacist tendencies is equivalent to other political supremacist group when (in my opinion) their islamic supremacist agenda tend to cause more economic, political and social hardship to disadvantaged nonbeliever like myself in the supposedly free world.
I take it then WLIL that you either live or work regularly in Malaysia?
My work and personal travels takes me regularly to Malaysia (KL, Jahore and Penang and when there I travel by hire car), as I am a coordinator and help manage a twice annual forum. Through that I know Malaysians from all walks of life and of different religions and know quite well the problems and benefits.
Though I totally reject being called ignorant by you, I would understand your opinion if your sources were only certain blogs and tabloid media.
Of course, if you have not been regularly or live in Malaysia and not just a tourist holiday, then we discuss the igorant question in another way (smile)....
Damien, Have you noticed all the self-proclaimed antiJihadists work only within their own grouping, quote from each other and do the repeat, wash, rinse and repeat cycle?
To a certain extent, yes.
But if events are occurring, multiple sites would report those events. We see that on news sites all the time with stories not at all related to Islam.
Blogging is, by nature, often symbiotic.
You might want to take a look at this site. Mark Alexander's essays are on the sidebar. He lived in the Middle East for over a decade, I think.
As for Faith Freedom and similar sites of apostates of Islam, I have to say that I do pay attention to what apostates of Islam have to say, albeit with a grain of salt.
BTW, what pushed me "over the edge" was the cartoonifada. The God that I worship is powerful enough not to need my help over a bunch of blasphemous cartoons. In my view, if Muslims are to integrate in the West, they'll have to get over certain sensitivities.
Furthermore, I have read extensively on the history of Islam, including the Conquest and Reconquest of Spain (in the original Spanish and noting the bias involved). I see no way around the fact that the history of Islam is one of the conquest of non-Muslim regions and nations. Such conquest began, at times, with peaceful colonization.
Unfortunately, personally, it was and still is a horrible and uneasy experience for me to live in Malaysia which did not give me an opportunity to grow positively as an independent person even though I was born in Malaysia. I find asian environment are generally oppressive and islamic ones are even more oppressive for nonbeliever like myself. I never adapted to malaysia unpleasant environment even though I live on and off in malaysia, for quite a long period of time. I find the mix of asian and islamic culture unpleasant, unfair, demotivating, quite brutal at times and disturbing. Malaysia tend to cater mostly to the rich or socalled educated classes or those racist supremacist islamics or those opportunistics pro-islamics or pro-malays. And there are other ethnic non-moslems who live quite comfortably or very comfortably because they have richer backgroud or have higher education or have integrated to the malaysian life which in reality very unpleasant most times for disadvantaged nonbeliever like myself who don't like their islamic and asian culture. By the way, I don't depend on blogs to form my personal opinions and I don't find any benefits at all in living in such an unpleasant place as malaysia.
AlwaysOnWatch, Thank You for allowing me the opportunity to analyse your many discussions on your website. Well, actually, I rather read and analyse than comment as I find it quite stressful to follow up on my comments! WLIL
The index list is full of canadafreepress which is another one of "the list".
I remember the entire group posting an item with photo of a man in some village being burnt to death because he (a Christian) wanted to marry a Muslim girl. They all cited each other and only one, canadafreepress showed the item coming from an Assyrian website.
The bottom line was that website was a US based political site, the photo was suspect because 1. why was a camera ready and 2. it had cobbled streets which villages including the one named did not. Add to that even with all the tyranny of the past Egyptian regime, such an event would have made national headlines and been monitored and shown on main stream media. It was totally made up and because every hate-site uses the lame excuse of it was not me, they can happily quote each other as sources.
That has to stop, it makes them look stupid, if there is any serious message about growing dangers it is lost in that garbage they spread.
As for the Mark Alexander site, it is the usual scare-mongering-for-profit as that is his business. As soon as terms like "pushing back Europe into the 14th century, you know it is garbage, plain and simple. I told you about "Euromuslims" and yes it is a huge issue, I for one wish laws were much tougher and they were given an ultimatum. In addition, I am all for tight immigration laws with integration contracts and failure resulting in deportation - but I have an actual target and not some generalist or agenda-based broad attack that reaks of mindless hate.
Always On Watch, that you have read and studied some of Spanish History and noted that it was the Spanish view is very good. It was only until 6 years ago that the Education ministry started to pull out obviously biased textbooks from schools and they are continuing to review the history. I may have mentioned, I live in Gibraltar and I am half-Spanish myself.
Most certainly much of the spread of Islam was alongside armies but in fact most religions were because it followed migration. I find it rather tiring and sad that the finger is only pointed at Islam and the Christianisation of South America, The Phillipines and Eastern Europe was most certainly at the edge of the sword as was the forced conversions in Southern Spain was with the threat of burning or drowning.
History is history and again it is blaming the faith rather than the men who ran it. I see the spread of Islam as just another example of the power struggles of civilisations, that control moves and thus also immigration and thus all those aspects that tag along with it, such as faith. That Muslims did it to spread their faith is identicial to the history of South America and even we can say the colonization and control of much of Africa by the British was "inspired" by Methodist missionaries bringing civilization. Read about the "lost generation" in Australia and you will find that over 45 years children were taken away from Aboriginal parents because they needed to become "civilized" and more importantly, "good Christians".
Regarding Apostates, I simply put no value in what they say regardless of their sincerity. There is a good reason to not, and that is being and apostate is in itself fine, that means they left their religion. What we are talking about is those that advertise and use/abuse their ex-religious status to attack their previous faith and that lacks morals and self-respect. It also guarentees that they have a bais and thus cannot be trusted. Those that push their hate even further have often worse agendas.
Some were abused and had bad experiences, I can understand that, if you grew up in a radical location or with a radical family, it can damage you. Hirsi is an example and an example also of someone profiting from it, which damages any of her credibility.
WLIL, I feel sorry for your experiences and wonder how long ago it is. Perhaps your use of language confuses my impression of you, for example you rather take a dim view of life in Asia or are you talking only about Malaysia. I for one, and I know I am in the huge majority, rather find life in Asia both good, exciting and interesting and far from depressing. I spent a year of my life between end of studies and work in Thailand and loved it, my constant travelling there is mostly enjoyable and when it comes to Malaysia, unfortunately the picture give does not reflect what I see at all.
I agree that the ethnic Malays, whom are Muslim, dominate and the laws ensure their dominance, but only in rural areas and certain centres are there any religious biased. Family law is secular for non-Muslims but Sharia for Muslims only, thus divorce laws are different. You can see in the streets of the main cities girls in Hijabs walking to school with their friends in sleevless tops and short dresses.
If you have had a bad experience, I can understand views, but like my previous item about apostates, you should most certainly remember and learn from your experiences but as Archbishop Desmond Tutu said in the reconcilliation trials, let it not distort reality by hiding it or smothering it.
Have you been to Indonesia, there is a country that has gone up and down when it comes to sectarian bias and problems but in the last 10 years has cut most of its problems in half and is continuing to do so.
Ironically, it is here in Europe that the real problems are.
A last note, I am not interested in a conflict with you, this is a good discussion we are having and Always On Watch should be commended for encouraging it. I am sure he does not agree with all or much I say, I certainly do not with much in this blog, but is it not the right thing to do to discuss the issue in the open? I have over 30 years of experience both in travels, study and my work as a barrister/solicitor (lawyer in American Engish) to add. That is all.
Damien, I'm still busy with household matters right now (caregiving my disabled husband, to be specific), so cannot engage at length in this discussion at the moment.
But I want to point out four things:
1. What sources about Islam will you accept? You obviously will not accept many sources that I've used or mentioned. Do you accept only personal experiences? You do cite them a lot. As for individuals profiting from books they write, well, that's true of all sides of any issue, right? In my view, the fact that one might be making money doesn't necessarily negate everything he says.
2. I am a woman, not a man.
3. I am a teacher (literature, as one subject) and am used to hosting open discussions. Often, my students don't agree with my opinions about the works we've read. But as long as learning in taking place and as long as discussions are civil, I will encourage such discussions, particularly if such discussions marshal evidence.
4. Mark Alexander is a personal friend of mine -- not merely a cyberfriend. I wouldn't categorize him as a fearmonger, but he is "on the front lines" of the Euromuslim "movement" in the UK.
AlwaysOnWatch, Thank you for welcoming me to your website. I will continue to participate in your discussion, if I wish to vent out something that may be disagreeable or agreeable, whenever possible. Beside me wishing to avoid unpleasant conflict with anyone, another thing that is slowing down my commenting is due to the fact that I don't have a computer of my own. Indeed, blogging can be such hard work and if it can improve our western freedom, independence and prevent terror, it would be worth participitating in, whenever possible.
And since this is not my website, I don't see the need to reply to anyone directly other than to Always on Watch. As with regard with my unpleasant experience and unpleasant observation of Asia,(where I have been to singapore, cambodia, thailand, beside malaysia), I have to say that the quite massive infitration of islamic culture(where it may lead to being overwhelmed by islamic culture in asia) is not a good sign because it will lead to more extreme islamism related problems in asia, if the growing islamic spread in asia continue in mostly apathetic asia. And it would be even even worst if islamic people, whatever they wear, continue to threaten, should they afford to do so, using their faith. And no, I would never go to indonesia after being verbally abused by some islamic influenced, proislamic indonesian maids in malaysia. It may be a good thing to travel but it is also good to be aware of different cultures in asia that tend to misuse their wealth or may have misused their wealth to further their totalitarian ideology.
The source of Islam that I represent is basically two aspects. The first is what I consider the Academic/Reality and second the Experience/Reality. That means the first is either what is produced by consensus in the Academic World and backed-up by what is the reality on the ground. The second is the experiences of people backuped by the same criteria. Remember, I am a Catholic, so I place no basis on Islamic scriptures except from an academic point of view. As I have a great deal of experience, I do not view the scriputres and I co-chair a be-annual human-rights forum based in Asia I see data, I know about abuses, I have access to governments, NGOs and educational instituions I use these two basis as my method of judgement and knowledge source.
Regarding your being a woman, please excuse as I have limited time and it did not actually become apparent to me until last night.
You take the correct line and discuss regardless of opinions, I have noted that appreciation and continue to do so.
With all respect to your friend, he is not just attacking Islamists but the entire faith and I find much of his wording as sensationalism not cold-emotionless facts, that is my view.
Damien, About your sources....You mentioned Academic/Reality. Could you be more specific? I would normally include the Koran in "academic reality," but you apparently do not.
My limited experiences have been different from yours. Relating them would take up a lot of space, but if you want to hear about them, I can work on explaining them.
Question: To what do you attribute the phenomenon of "Euromuslim"?
Academic/Reality or Academic versus Reality to be more specific does not include any religious text because it means we, in partuclar the non-believer, is interpreting the text. Unless of course the person is an academic and in that case, they must be judged by peers.
Good examples would be that we know there are wahhabists whom interpret things literally and thus we have the situation of the laws introduced in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. We also know that the vast bulk of the leadership of Al Qaeda are also Wahhabist or Wahhabist inspired. Now we also know that they are a minority, that there are many other interpretations and we also know that even the haddiths are interpreted differently and some are not accepted by certain groups and others are introduced into others.
You may not know, but as a barrister and from my work in Asia, I have discovered even there are differences in various Sharia Law Codex depending on the country that uses it. Also that Sharia is in fact in less than 50 per cent of the Muslim countries and of those that have it the majority only for Family Law and subject to a secular Appeals Court.
So, for my sources, I trust academics that are subject to peer analysis and criticism and the words of ALL the variants of clerical interpretations and then base that upon the actual reality on the ground in each nation.
So you can imagine that I have ZERO tolerance to those that make wide sweeping generalizations as being beyond logic and reality.
The term Euromuslims was started by EU and French politicians and the Dutch and Germans are starting to use it as well.
What is means is those established Muslim migrants whom are anti-integration and have allegences outside of their country or the EU.
I do not like the term but I have no choice in the matter because the term does not sound negative but the meaning is.
The origin of this group the Euromuslims is in fact mistaken liberal policies of the 1970s, though some that were responsible were not very liberal, like Magret Thatcher in the UK.
It was a combination of liberal nicesness and political games, that started the surge of "political refugees". Accepting a political refugee from a country is a diplomatic slap in the face as it is a public way of saying you abuse your population and we all know it.
So from 1975 Europe and Britain started getting a large influx of people, particularly from Muslim nations under the refugee status. Big Mistake Number One was that most of these were not victims of abuse but in fact political agitators and extremists. Thus the Muslim Brotherhood's hard-core, Baathists and other hard-liners were given a new life and welcomed in Europe. Now 40 years on they are well established, have children that have grown up and encouraged to join the legal profession, local politics and the civil service. They agitated, infiltrated local communities and began to dominate. That brought around Big Mistake Number Two - that is convincing the nice liberal authorities to accept Mass Family Migration, which brought around a mostly low-educated mass of followers into the country who were either indebted or ignorant enough to support these radicals.
They now have a strong support base for anti-integation, they have allegences to clerics and politicians outside in their contries of origin and worst of all, they fund, harbour and offer support - and thier children - to terrorism. Not all but enough to condemn the communities as a grouping.
If one have to live uneasily with so llttle freedom and almost no opportunity to achieve anything as a disadvantaged nonbeliever in an asian country that is dominated by islamic culture, in almost every aspects, and when one have to face unfair discrimination, unreasonable hostility and creepy alienation from their ever unhelpful, selfish, shabby islamic culture, one would know that any criticism of islamic culture are not sweeping generalization but more to do with the unpleasant reality of backwardness and problems caused by islamic culture in asia, though other similar unpleasant nonislamic asian culture contribute to the problems too.
About three years ago, I had an Afghan family enrolled in one of my homeschool classes. One day, I struck up a conversation with the father. He informed me that he was no longer a Muslim. Of course, I asked him why. His answer was as follows (paraphrase):
"I left my country to get away from the Taliban. When I came here to America, I attended mosque and found the same teachings going on in American mosques. I searched the Quran for myself and decided I didn't want to be Muslim any longer. I read the Bible and didn't like it either. I'm no religion now."
The mosques he was referring to are here in Northern Virginia.
So, perhaps the situation with Euromuslims isn't unique to Europe.
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As for shari'a, yes, I do know that shari'a involves all sorts of concepts and applications, not all of which are anti-Western and concepts and applications that can vary from country to country. I've been studying Islam since 9/11 and have read sources other than what you refer to as anti-jihadist.
You may think I'm ignorant. Perhaps I am to a certain extent. But I'm not TOTALLY ignorant of the benign aspects of Islam. Remember, I'm a Spanish major.
BTW, medieval Al-Andalus was, for a time, quite mild. Then, the Damascence "caliphate" moved in. I'm simplifying, but I think you get my point: "radicalization" should be of concern to the West, largely because Muslims are ever searching for the will of Allah -- a concept that most Westerners do not grasp very well.
WLIL, You mentioned their ever unhelpful, selfish, shabby islamic culture.
Some of what you're speaking of is related to the tribal culture. Or so my friend from China tells me; she frequently comments about the similarities between Islamic culture and Chinese tribal culture.
Always On Watch, I think indian tribal culture and islamic tribal culture have more similarities though chinese tribal culture and islamic tribal culture are also quite similar in certain ways in certain parts of asia. I think islamic influenced people are more tribalistic in an extreme manner and therefore they are more intolerant of us individuals who think very differently from them or who don't like them or who don't agree with them.
WLIL, The discussion I had with my Chinese friend occurred after she had read James Michener's Caravans. She wasn't much interested in reading anti-jihadist materials, but she was more than willing to read Michener.
What really got to my friend was the oppression of women as depicted in Caravans, and she went on to speak of situations in Chinese tribal culture, which, apparently, varies by particular regions of China.
BTW, my Chinese friend was born in Taiwan and immigrated here when very young; her parents were missionaries in mainland China and fled the communists AND the tribal culture.
I have no specific academic that I follow more than others, I read mountains of material from any person who one would call a real scholar - meaning an academic who is recognized as such and undergoes regular peer scrutiny. They can have all sorts of views, agree or disagree with each other and that is a good thing, the point being they are not from a closed fringe clique that self-supports each other and avoids the greater academic society that constantly tests itself for quality, context and accuracy.
Yes the US is very much like the US and though integration to a degree is different as also is the affects of society and laws, the same problem is there. We can add that some of the major Islamic groups like the all important CAIR avoids that important step of supporting unquestioned integration or distancing itself from foreign clerics and thus I do not trust it.
As you have studied Spanish history then you will know that the purge and radicalisation that happened in Al Andalus basically wiped away a Goden Age that still has influence to this day on modern Europe and Spain (not that Spain really still recognizes that). The remnants of Al Andalus is basically still there in Morocco and to a lesser degree in Algeria and Tunisia to their gain.
If there is any point to Al Andalus in our discussions here is that the very existance of that influencial Al Andalus proves that there was varying interpretations and not just moderate but liberal growth and more. Also that the issue is combatting radicalism and not either targetting the faith as a whole or assuming that Islam means hate and backwardness.
If anything it is tribalism that is the major problem within the Muslim world.
Tribalism and other cultural practices are often presumed to belong the faith rather than the tribal culture. Perfect examples of that is sexism in general, the niqab and burka - niqab is the face covering, burka the entire covering. Islam does not say cover the face of the body in total and historians have proven that at the time of Mohammed, neither was a main stream habit. Tribal practices had it before Islam in many areas and it grew and the effort of male dominance in tribal society ensured that it snuck in. An interesting point is that Al Azhar in Cairo that is considered the main school of Islamic studies forbids the burqa and the viel within its doors!
Talibanism is a mix of hard-line Wahhabi teachings and tribal customs and it is dispised by other Arabs even Saudi Wahhabists. It is recorded that both Bin Laden and his number 2 threatened to leave and hated every minute when living within a Taliban encampment and there was in fact twice battles with them.
The point I am making here and perhaps our friend is confusing this, what was in fact social, cultural and tribal abuse, exceptionalism, nationalism and other rather repugnant events may very well have been just that and not really Islamic.
Mentioning India is interesting because these hate sites often claim that abusing wives, killing them and slavery somehow is bad amongst Muslims when all of these are very much a part or in fact worse within the poor, uneducated and rural tribal Hindu India and Nepal. Nepal has the highest rate of spousal abuse in the world and India has the most slaves (endentured, half of which are children). Often Muslims and Islam is blamed for being the masters of rape as well, which also falls flat considering the highest rates of rape, either statistically or numerically is in South Africa.
Damien, We are in agreement on CAIR. It is interesting to note that, despite CAIR's claims to the contrary, few Muslims are actually members of CAIR -- if membership is indeed the correct term.
On the other hand, not very many Muslims speak out against CAIR -- except for a notable few, who are then slammed by CAIR.
CAIR's recent loss of tax-exempt status may do some damage to CAIR. We'll see.
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I brought up Al Aldalus as an example of something that can begin as good and end horribly -- due to the influence of fundamentalist Muslims, who are then pushed back by equally barbaric Christians. The influence and pushing back were not exactly chronologically sequential, and I don't mean to imply otherwise.
I read somewhere that some of the techniques using during the Spanish Inquisition were techniques also used by the fundamentalist Muslims of the Damascene caliphate.
In any case, religious wars are ugly.
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No names for any academic scholars? Oh, well. I was hoping you'd provide a name or two so that I could read that same work.
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On another note, I'm not sure that one can understand any faith (or other ideology, for that matter) without reading original works or excerpts thereof (Bible, Quran, Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged, what have you).
Nice try, Atlasshrugs as you can imagine is amongs the most laughably and inept members of the self-proclaimed anti-jihadist movement and has a leader who's entire goal is to see her name in lights.
Yes I believe Morocco is again modifying its constitution making the King less powerful and handing more to the PM and parliament. I watched an interesting item TV yesterday how the world media is getting it wrong, implying that it is the Arab spring that is the cause when in fact the process of change has been on for more than ten years since their new king took power.
J Clifford Wright, M A S Abdel Haleem and the late Prof Lings all from SOAS, Prof. Akbar Ahmed from the American University in DC and M N Albani (an Albanian, deceased was considered a major fikh expert.
The above come to mind of the top of my head. Real academics, some are dead, some were into Sufism, some were pretty much orthodox but they all had differing views and were willing to go through the full academic process which you have to admit none of "those blogs" could ever hope to achieve, or we could say - they are not fringe.
In the eastern world, it is usually the poorer people or disadvantaged nonbeliever individual like myself who had fallen onto bad times that get oppressed by lack of support and lack of opportunity to improve in an oppressive asian country dominated and infested by backward, irrational, supremacist, abusive islamic people. I don't really know much about china, though I do know that some chinese people in asia are influenced by unpleasant islamic culture. I have no sympathy for oppressive eastern people of various faiths or nonfaith who make use of their vile eastern totalitarian ideology or vile eastern culture to exploit the western world generosity or decency.
I don't think those many islamic academics and islamic mainstream media people that I came across, which I did not take note of their name, are that original either as they tend to copy and paste from original western reviews or from orginal western historians or tend to be very anti-western achievement and tend to be extremely and fanatically supportive, directly or indirectly, of their weird worldwide pro-islamic political agenda. Anti-islamic blogs, whether one like it or not, are getting more widespread, more high quality, more educational and reinforcing what we nonbelievers already know about the creeping of the sinisterly, unpleasant unfiltration of the islamic totalitarian culture.
Damien, Clarification....I mentioned Atlas Shrugged not to reference Pamela Geller's web site Atlas Shrugs, but rather to make the point that I have read original works by "authors" of various ideologies, religious and otherwise, including ideologies to which I don't subscribe. Ayn Rand "invented" objectivism, so I tried to wade through her so-called "masterwork." I didn't find it well written, nor did I agree with a lot of what was presented.
I don't agree with your assessment of Pamela Geller. Also, I should tell you that I don't read her web site very often -- not for the reasons you gave, however.
Blogs may be "fringe," but sometimes "fringe" does serve a good purpose. For example, many writers of the American Revolution period were considered "fringe" at the time.
WLIL You mentioned: weird worldwide pro-islamic political agenda.
Indeed, that political agenda is a huge part of the problem.
Yes, most scholars (and others) have an agenda. I try to remember that and do my own evaluation based on facts that can be confirmed.
One of my pet peeves is the whitewash of the history of Islam. That whitewash has intensified since 9/11 to the point that, in some textbooks, there will be an entire chapter on Islam but no chapter on Christianity or Judaism. I saw such a phenomenon in a textbook used in high school. Perhaps Susan Douglass's hand is behind that particular textbook. Familiar with her?
AlwaysOnWatch, It was interesting to read about your findings and opinions. I never heard about Susan Douglass. I would try to check it out on the internet.
Fringe is Fringe. The revolutionaries of America were not Fringe, they had a large, solid work-base, they were not "establishment" which is different.
Modern day Fringe, in particular with the web, means that they are only supported by a limited group that if on the web is also questionably loyal. Brovado and the desire to be part of something exciting leads people to support things in anonimity but in reality would not do so, thus the Fringe is even more Fringe because their support base is not a quantifiable mass base.
In this particular case, the self-proclaimed anti-Jihad group is easily identifiable as a group but their loyalty base is not as great and quesitonable in substance.
They are mostly of a great big circle that share information and in fact often share each other as sources. They are almost totally without academic support or academic peer critique which also puts them in the fringe category. There are some connected to Academia whom carefully push their points, mostly books to sell, and are often borderline outcasts of their academic spheres.
The sad reality is that though they should be ignored, they abuse the openness of the internet to push their line to the greater mass audience on the web and thus are a danger, because they confuse the importance of issues like the threat of Islamists and terrorists.
Also, and we should not forget, even the anti-Jihad movement is hijacked by some groups to push their own agendas, such as the Evangalist Movements whom wish to attack Islam not because of any dangers, but because they want to convert and "save souls" or worse, "be on some crusade". Then there is the Settler-Movement whom want to build sufficient numbers of settlements in the West Bank to then force the Israeli Government to incorporate it all into the country, Daniel Greenfield is a perfect example. The last group is the profiteers whom simply creat blogs, join in but carefully you will see lots of links to books, posters and t-shirts of thiers or thier co-conspiritors. Get your credit-cards ready. They are not interested in the subject, they are in fact targetting the fringe for profit.
A last comment (sorry I always write in length), have you also noticed that the self-proclaimed anti-Jihadists are also mostly the far-right, mostly in the tea-party scene, mostly the ones who support partisanship, mostly are the ones who pushed the birther debate, etc, etc, etc. Oh, I am centre-right, a registered British Conservative Party member.
Damien, Not all anti-jihadists I know fit into the classifications that you delineated in your comment. But, yes, most do.
I am an anti-jihadist, but I entered the blogosphere because of the doings of CAIR in my local community. At the time, I barely knew any anti-jihadists as I didn't have a high-speed connection to the Internet. Two of the few sites that I could get to load were Northern Virginiastan, where is used to team blog, and Jihad Watch. For years, I didn't even know that Pamela Geller existed.
By the way, the book that "lit up my board" was Trikovic's The Sword of the Prophet. Right after I read that book, I read Oriana Fallaci's book The Rage and the Pride.
Anyway, as you've already pointed out, you and I disagree on many points. However, our discussion here has been reasoned, so I've continued to participate in the discussion.
As for deleting comments, I don't do so unless the comments are vile. Dissent is not a reason for me to delete comments. Your comments will continue to stand here at my site -- unless Blogger crashes, that is.
"The importance for discussion and debate is paramount, at the least it ensures each party has to consider their own position more seriously". - President Truman
I appreciate that good discussion and debate is available here, that we agree or disagree is in fact of no consequence.
We welcome civil dialogue at Always on Watch. Comments that include any of the following are subject to deletion: 1. Any use of profanity or abusive language 2. Off topic comments and spam 3. Use of personal invective
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He's not wrong. I wonder why we are not seeing a reaction to this truth by the "silent majority" on the right ... ? Have the British and most of Europe become sock puppets?
ReplyDeleteCondell is very good when it comes to the question of Islamism.
ReplyDeleteI hope he stays alive; he's so right and so articulate.
ReplyDeleteHe's right, I'm expecting a fatwa on him any time.
ReplyDeleteDebbie
Right Truth
http://www.righttruth.typepad.com
He says it very well. Too bad many of us are too thick to get it.
ReplyDelete"Have the British and most of Europe become sock puppets?"
Not all, but more than enough have.
I like Pat and look forward to all his video's!
ReplyDeleteHe talks well but in fact that is all. He is not questioning Islamism he is targetting Islam in the typical self-congratulating and self-proclaimed anti-Jihadist group of bloggers.
ReplyDeleteUsing big words, cut & paste when it comes to chosing to send the messsage and contextual abuse neveer in the end works. It is that simple and that is why he is fringe, considered fringe by academica and the political establishment.
The problem is that he detracts from the real issues that are faced today by both the Muslim world and us in the west that are targetted by extremists and deadly jihadists.
By attacking the faith itself in a simply pathetic and unprofessional manner not only fails but makes the case look laughable.
Supporting the silent majority within the Muslim world with improving rights, education and dealing with the secular side works. What also works is by supporting and encouraging the non-radical and at present pathetically silent western Muslilms to beecome more vocal and more integrated.
Freedom by the Way,
ReplyDeleteThank you for blogrolling me. I appreciate it -- and your kind words, too.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteActually, I wouldn't classify Pat Condell along with typical anti-jihadists. He's an atheist and often criticizes Christianity, too. You can read more about Mr. Condell and Wikipedia and elsewhere.
It seems to me that the silent majority within the Muslim world has had ample opportunity to be more vocal and more integrated, particularly since 9/11. So, why the silence? Maybe because they are searching for the will of Allah and actually believe that the will of Allah does mean fundamentalist Islam.
WLIL,
ReplyDeleteI understand exactly what you're saying.
Moslems so often want special concessions and special consideration well beyond that given to any other group.
I would agree that the issue is why there is not this great demonstration against barbarities.
ReplyDeleteThat is answerable though. It certainly is not Freedom's reasoning that it is because the faith demands it - not at all, because that is proven by the fact that it does not happen in most, if not the majority of Muslim countries. We can say for example that only 13 of the 56 Muslim nations have all or some of these practices, why is that? Why is it that when these horrors occur, countries like Morocco, Tunisia and Turkey splash it in the news and people are outraged?
The problem always comes down to illitracy, education in general and the historical rule of not condemning clerics or the subject of faith. Our world has secularised and education has forced the discussion of what the old ugly way - in some cases we have only just choked off this problem but you try and condemn my Catholic practices in the Pyrennes or in the Mountains in north Italy and you will see the hushed silence.
We forget the Muslim world's vast population is in the developing world, with huge illitarcy and often the education and news system is through Mosques and Maddrasas. Blasphemy is still a key issue (or excuse) in half the countries and though poverty and education is a real and important factor - obviously it has to change if they are to catch up.
My point is that the bloggosphere, antit-Jihadists and Condell - if he is one or not - looks for the simple answer and in this subject has rather cut & pasted his way which means he failed the context rule.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteI will agree with you that the topic of Islam (in all its various manifestations) is complex.
That said, the objections to anti-shari'a legislation are disturbing. If Muslims are to integrate in Western society, certain aspects of shari'a will have to be abandoned.
I'm sure that you've seen some of the posters carried in the streets by Muslims in the UK: "Behead those who insult Islam," etc. Where are the Muslims out in the street to object, along the lines of those who here in the United States have objected to the vile doings of Westboro Baptist Church?
Make no mistake: I have no objection to the followers of any religion adhering to that faith -- but only if they don't interfere with my freedoms. I object to those who gripe about the aroma emanating from my pork roasts (Muslims, Jews) and my grilled hamburgers (Buddhists). Now, nobody has objected to any of my grilling; in fact, the Buddhist's wife, not a Buddhist, would come over and eat the hamburgers with me. But you must be aware of the stories of Muslim clerks refusing to handle pork in the market checkout stand (United States) and of Muslims objecting to the aroma of bacon (UK).
In fairness, I must say that the best barbecue in town is that of Hassan's place. He handles and serves pork -- and has pig statues all over the place. Now, there's a Muslim who understands freedom in America! See THIS and THIS.
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Yes, illiteracy is an issue in the Islamic world. But many jihadists are not illiterate.
It is interesting that the examples you give are of those radical Muslims in the West and that in itself explains the reality that is so often forgotten or in many cases ignored.
ReplyDeleteTake for example certain groups in the UK. They claim and demand so many things, banning christmas decorations in streets with many or a majority of Muslim shops. Ironically, and kept quiet by them, most Muslim countries actually go out of their way to put up christmas directions in shopping centres and sell blow-up santas - why is that? These radicals want Sharia courts in Britain and the liberal niceness in the country sort-of gives in to it but such courts do not exist in many Muslim countries which take their secular legal system very seriously, again why is that?
There is a growing term called "Euromuslim" which refers to radical european muslims whom push for a level of Islam within europe that often exceeds what is actually accepted in most of the actual existing Muslim world.
I live in Gibraltar and thus I hop over to Morocco regularly for work and weekends. They sit in amazement when they see these euromuslims demanding things and call them h'muk which means in their language "stupid".
My argument which I tried to push here comes down to one simple thing. When blaming radicals many people are blaming instead Islam. You use the Westboro example and thus we can argue that there are way to many Westboro types in the Muslim world and they do get their support from the illiterates - as the support base - but do we blame Christianity for the Westboro type, no, yet they claim God, Jesus and the Bible as their source! So it is with radical Muslims and the Jihadists, and thus when I see the response as "Islam this and Islam that..." I consider it to be what Martin Luther King Jr said was the most foolish of people - the "arrogant ignorant" ie, those that arrogantly push something based on their own ignorance.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteWe have had some incidents here in the United States with Muslim cabdrivers (Somalis?) who balked at transporting guide dogs and fares carrying liquor and with store clerks who didn't want to handle pork products.
These radicals want Sharia courts in Britain and the liberal niceness in the country sort-of gives in to it but such courts do not exist in many Muslim countries which take their secular legal system very seriously, again why is that?
I'm not sure why. The influence of hardline imams, perhaps.
You tell me: Why are "Euromuslims" so belligerent?
As for Westboro Baptist Church, I don't know that the members are illiterate exactly. But they are a very closed community. Many Christian groups have objected to WBC. And the numbers in WBC are small. I suppose that some atheists do see WBC as proof that Christianity is intolerant; I know that secularists do ridicule individuals such as Harold Camping, the fellow who claimed that Rapture Day was a particular date this past May. I happened to attend a secularist convention and heard the ridicule for myself. Clearly, these secularists think that ALL Christians are ignorant. I do know many illiterate Christians who don't hold with WBC or Harold Camping.
The fact remains that jihadist Muslims do use Islam as the basis for their deeds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that Morocco is somewhat unique in its cosmopolitan approach.
More to say, but it's time for me to retire for the night.
WLIL,
ReplyDeleteAs you can see, Damien and I are having a reasoned discussion.
Don't misunderstand: I don't agree with much of what Damien is saying.
The issue of Islamic supremacism is THE issue regarding the threat that Muslims pose within Western societies.
In the United States, we have people of all faiths. But people of all threats aren't rioting over the doings and sayings of the likes of Terry Jones, who got into a lot of difficulty in Dearborn yesterday or the day before. Now, one can make the case that Terry Jones is saying and doing things that Muslims find blasphemous; but in the United States, religious blasphemy isn't an excuse for retaliation.
In my view, illiteracy isn't the problem.
I never said that illiteracy is the problem but it is a large factor. It provides the "mass support" or "the mob".
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts on why Euromuslims have so much influence has to do with history and politics. They started coming in the mid 70's as "poltical refugees" which was a way that western governments could "slap in the face" for colonies by saying that they "were abusing and we all know it". It backfired badly because those that were in trouble and escaped were the radicals that crossed the line. Now some almost 40 years later they are well imbedded and they have a second generation whom are often well educated, lawyers and civil servants. Some are even support bases for terrorists.
This group also, as in the UK, were the ones who pushed for mass family migration and thus allowed thousands of semi-literates mostly from rural or poor areas to come and they have an immediate following. Politicians are to a degree intimidated, want their vote and with the EU system, must be "supported and cared for".
I do not consider supporters of Westbro or other extreme evangelical groups to be illitrate, I did not say that, that is why their following is small, but they get their attention and noise from other methods. The point I tried to make is that you get the ugly groups and they attempt to dominate, you get those who fight them demonizing (and thus giving more headlines to) them and the problem grows.
What needs to be done is perspective and context and that is what has failed the most. The reality is that there is a huge number of Muslims all around Europe, Americas and Australia that outnumber and do not want to be associated with radicals and they are not vocal which is also wrong. They have integrated very well and that is why they can hide. They need to be encouraged to speak out and be supported to the hilt to turn the "mob" fro supporting the radicals.
Again, my "beef" is people targetting the entire faith rather than those within it, with lines here like "these muslims", or "Islamic nonesense". That neither makes sense and for me smacks of ignorance.
A last comment, supremecy is political every faith believes it is the one and only true representative of God so the texts reflect that. I am a Catholic so you see my faith as a good example. But social-psychologically speaking, supremecy is a political and social example of power. Do not forget the term American-Exceptionalism to the rest of the world sounds rather "supremicist" and unless your an American will never be appreciated. It is logical that radical Islamists will go on and on about supremecy just as much as when a non-Chistian tries to talk to an evangalist, those rolling eyes and little put-downs begin to start.
This is a good discussion and I appreciate it.
As for Morocco, it is unique and yet it is not. It is the best example of freedoms and yet allowing faith to be there, but it is not alone. Tunisia is almost the same, Algeria would be except for its corrupt government, Libya even though in war and the dictatorship of Ghaddafi is in fact pretty much the same. Beirut is a mix, you can be as liberal as you like but if you bump into Hezbollah your screwed. Half if not 3/4 of Jordan is great - I lived there for two years - Malaysia is mostly Muslim and pretty much a fantastic place, Turkey is even more so.
ReplyDeleteThese are great examples of what the real Muslim world is like and most of the problems stem from lack of education, economics, post-colonial hang-ups and from these the ability to leave the shadow of the "old-world" that is unable to challenge the clerics to prove their points.
Recently in Morocco, but I don't know the significance thereof.
ReplyDeleteDamien,
ReplyDeleteI do know one Tunisian ex-pat here in the United States. Nice fellow, with no overt problem with Christians.
It is my understanding the Malaysia is moving in a more hardline direction.
I know that you don't like Jihad Watch, but I recently read THIS by new member Anti Jihadist. More information about Anti Jihadist HERE.
Recently in Algeria:
ReplyDeleteThe head of the Algerian Protestant Church Association (EPA) – to which the majority of Algerian churches belong – received a notice, dated 22 May, from a High Police Commissioner informing him that a decision had been made to close down all Christian places of worship throughout the country that are not designated for religious purposes.
Most church buildings have not been officially designated because it has proved impossible for them to obtain registration from the authorities following stringent regulations introduced in 2006, which were designed to restrict the religious activity of non-Muslims....
True or not?
Damien,
ReplyDeleteIsn't there a hardline movement afoot in Turkey? I read something about that.
Morocco - I am actually dissapointed in the efforts of the media including BBC this time. The night of the King's Speech there was in fact more of the population celebrating in the streets than the protesters in Casablanca and Rabat. In Marrakesh they almost did not turn up. The media want to believe that this is part of the Arab Spring when it is not, reform has been going slow and steady over the last 11 years with the new King. There is always a certain element that do not agree and the media are only talking to them. Al Jazeera English only spoke to a "Moroccan Journalist" from California who admitted that he has not been in that country for 8 years - he actually is only a blogger.
ReplyDeleteThe item you selected by this Anti Jihadist is to put it bluntly, pure utter rubbish and thus most certainly deserves to be on the a similar website. Looking at his profile, he is a nutjob, pure and simple. His, like Spencer, is self-congratulatory tripe with constant cutting & pasting, no context what so ever.
Have you noticed all the self-proclaimed antiJihadists work only within their own grouping, quote from each other and do the repeat, wash, rinse and repeat cycle?
Algeria is a sad case, corrupt and could have been spectacular but failed. It suffers with a certain Islamist group. The item you quoted is sad but I would have to see references because even that is over the top for Algeria. Did you get it from one of "those" blogs or an actual credible source. I was there about four months ago, I attended Church both in Algiers and Oran and the community seemed happy and strong enough considering the political problems there.
Turkey - there is a small but vocal "hard-line" community in Turkey and they are being watched by both the government and the media. Do not confuse the current governments references to "Islamism" which actually mean something different. Also the anti-Jihadists like to think that because the party wants Islam to be more open and not hidden that it means some take-over, that would be totally wrong. What in fact the party is pushing is a readjustment to return to a balance between the secular demands of society but without the past hiding or supression of the natural Islamic faith of its population. It should also be noted that the typical Turkish practicing of Islam is very liberal, moderate and more open to questioning. Look up Sufism, as a good portion of the population is such. I did a study on Islam in Turkey about 14 years ago as part of an extra History Degree.
I know is long - as all my postings tend to be - but I will mention the confusion over the world "Islamism". Islamism means "political Islam" but can have a huge number of variables and variations within it. There is no one version of Islamism.
In its purist sense, it is identical to Zionism which is "political Judaism" - in other words incorporating Judaism into natural politics and it also has a huge variety of versions.
Most certainly Islamists claim to represent or have a goal of Islamism but so does, for example, the Turkish PM and the Malaysian Opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim. They explained on CNN that they are part of a modern liberal varient of Islamism and say it is feasible to have that within a modern society. They both condemn Islamists, terrorists and extremism. I found this interesting. If anything it reminds me of the philosophy of socialims and communism and there were peaceful, if not pacifists amongst them and yet under the same ideology we goto Stalin, Mao and Castro.
Malaysia - I forgot, has some extremism, is not going "that way" as the Constitution protects the large Chinese buddish/Christian and Indian Hindu communities. There are always issues but that is normal in a multi ethnic society, that happens globally.
Sorry I missed the link on Algeria.
ReplyDeleteThe item is bogus. You can be suspicious from many grounds. The first is that is on Faith Freedom which is just another agenda based hate cite. Second, there is no source of the item, just quotes. A real newsitem would say the head of the organisation's name. Third the term "high commissioner of the police authorities" does not exist and is mindless rubbish. The head of the police in Algeria is the Direct General of the Surete Nationale. The term "high commissioner" is very Anglophone and normally with with us in the Commonwealth countries.
I can add more but I tend to write in length.....
Always On Watch,
ReplyDeleteIt was quite interesting following your discussion with Damien.
Again, I have to disagree with Damien.
Malaysia is not a great place, as it is even most uncomfortable and a difficult place to survive in for a poor nonbeliever like myself who have nothing in common with them and who want to avoid their ever creeping unpleasant totalitarian islamic culture.
There is a lot of ignorance on Damien part. Damien seems to imply that islamic supremacist tendencies is equivalent to other political supremacist group when (in my opinion) their islamic supremacist agenda tend to cause more economic, political and social hardship to disadvantaged nonbeliever like myself in the supposedly free world.
WLIL
I take it then WLIL that you either live or work regularly in Malaysia?
ReplyDeleteMy work and personal travels takes me regularly to Malaysia (KL, Jahore and Penang and when there I travel by hire car), as I am a coordinator and help manage a twice annual forum. Through that I know Malaysians from all walks of life and of different religions and know quite well the problems and benefits.
Though I totally reject being called ignorant by you, I would understand your opinion if your sources were only certain blogs and tabloid media.
Of course, if you have not been regularly or live in Malaysia and not just a tourist holiday, then we discuss the igorant question in another way (smile)....
Index of articles about Algeria closing churches
ReplyDeleteI haven't examined the index thoroughly as I have a doctor's appointment this morning and have a lot to do here at home before I head out the door.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteHave you noticed all the self-proclaimed antiJihadists work only within their own grouping, quote from each other and do the repeat, wash, rinse and repeat cycle?
To a certain extent, yes.
But if events are occurring, multiple sites would report those events. We see that on news sites all the time with stories not at all related to Islam.
Blogging is, by nature, often symbiotic.
You might want to take a look at this site. Mark Alexander's essays are on the sidebar. He lived in the Middle East for over a decade, I think.
As for Faith Freedom and similar sites of apostates of Islam, I have to say that I do pay attention to what apostates of Islam have to say, albeit with a grain of salt.
BTW, what pushed me "over the edge" was the cartoonifada. The God that I worship is powerful enough not to need my help over a bunch of blasphemous cartoons. In my view, if Muslims are to integrate in the West, they'll have to get over certain sensitivities.
Furthermore, I have read extensively on the history of Islam, including the Conquest and Reconquest of Spain (in the original Spanish and noting the bias involved). I see no way around the fact that the history of Islam is one of the conquest of non-Muslim regions and nations. Such conquest began, at times, with peaceful colonization.
WLIL,
ReplyDeleteThank you for following this thread. Your comments are welcome -- as are Damien's. I believe in reasoned discussion.
Unfortunately, personally, it was and still is a horrible and uneasy experience for me to live in Malaysia which did not give me an opportunity to grow positively as an independent person even though I was born in Malaysia. I find asian environment are generally oppressive and islamic ones are even more oppressive for nonbeliever like myself. I never adapted to malaysia unpleasant environment even though I live on and off in malaysia, for quite a long period of time. I find the mix of asian and islamic culture unpleasant, unfair, demotivating, quite brutal at times and disturbing. Malaysia tend to cater mostly to the rich or socalled educated classes or those racist supremacist islamics or those opportunistics pro-islamics or pro-malays. And there are other ethnic non-moslems who live quite comfortably or very comfortably because they have richer backgroud or have higher education or have integrated to the malaysian life which in reality very unpleasant most times for disadvantaged nonbeliever like myself who don't like their islamic and asian culture.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I don't depend on blogs to form my personal opinions and I don't find any benefits at all in living in such an unpleasant place as malaysia.
WLIL
AlwaysOnWatch,
ReplyDeleteThank You for allowing me the opportunity to analyse your many discussions on your website. Well, actually, I rather read and analyse than comment as I find it quite stressful to follow up on my comments!
WLIL
The index list is full of canadafreepress which is another one of "the list".
ReplyDeleteI remember the entire group posting an item with photo of a man in some village being burnt to death because he (a Christian) wanted to marry a Muslim girl. They all cited each other and only one, canadafreepress showed the item coming from an Assyrian website.
The bottom line was that website was a US based political site, the photo was suspect because 1. why was a camera ready and 2. it had cobbled streets which villages including the one named did not. Add to that even with all the tyranny of the past Egyptian regime, such an event would have made national headlines and been monitored and shown on main stream media. It was totally made up and because every hate-site uses the lame excuse of it was not me, they can happily quote each other as sources.
That has to stop, it makes them look stupid, if there is any serious message about growing dangers it is lost in that garbage they spread.
As for the Mark Alexander site, it is the usual scare-mongering-for-profit as that is his business. As soon as terms like "pushing back Europe into the 14th century, you know it is garbage, plain and simple. I told you about "Euromuslims" and yes it is a huge issue, I for one wish laws were much tougher and they were given an ultimatum. In addition, I am all for tight immigration laws with integration contracts and failure resulting in deportation - but I have an actual target and not some generalist or agenda-based broad attack that reaks of mindless hate.
Always On Watch, that you have read and studied some of Spanish History and noted that it was the Spanish view is very good. It was only until 6 years ago that the Education ministry started to pull out obviously biased textbooks from schools and they are continuing to review the history. I may have mentioned, I live in Gibraltar and I am half-Spanish myself.
ReplyDeleteMost certainly much of the spread of Islam was alongside armies but in fact most religions were because it followed migration. I find it rather tiring and sad that the finger is only pointed at Islam and the Christianisation of South America, The Phillipines and Eastern Europe was most certainly at the edge of the sword as was the forced conversions in Southern Spain was with the threat of burning or drowning.
History is history and again it is blaming the faith rather than the men who ran it. I see the spread of Islam as just another example of the power struggles of civilisations, that control moves and thus also immigration and thus all those aspects that tag along with it, such as faith. That Muslims did it to spread their faith is identicial to the history of South America and even we can say the colonization and control of much of Africa by the British was "inspired" by Methodist missionaries bringing civilization. Read about the "lost generation" in Australia and you will find that over 45 years children were taken away from Aboriginal parents because they needed to become "civilized" and more importantly, "good Christians".
Regarding Apostates, I simply put no value in what they say regardless of their sincerity. There is a good reason to not, and that is being and apostate is in itself fine, that means they left their religion. What we are talking about is those that advertise and use/abuse their ex-religious status to attack their previous faith and that lacks morals and self-respect. It also guarentees that they have a bais and thus cannot be trusted. Those that push their hate even further have often worse agendas.
Some were abused and had bad experiences, I can understand that, if you grew up in a radical location or with a radical family, it can damage you. Hirsi is an example and an example also of someone profiting from it, which damages any of her credibility.
WLIL, I feel sorry for your experiences and wonder how long ago it is. Perhaps your use of language confuses my impression of you, for example you rather take a dim view of life in Asia or are you talking only about Malaysia. I for one, and I know I am in the huge majority, rather find life in Asia both good, exciting and interesting and far from depressing. I spent a year of my life between end of studies and work in Thailand and loved it, my constant travelling there is mostly enjoyable and when it comes to Malaysia, unfortunately the picture give does not reflect what I see at all.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the ethnic Malays, whom are Muslim, dominate and the laws ensure their dominance, but only in rural areas and certain centres are there any religious biased. Family law is secular for non-Muslims but Sharia for Muslims only, thus divorce laws are different. You can see in the streets of the main cities girls in Hijabs walking to school with their friends in sleevless tops and short dresses.
If you have had a bad experience, I can understand views, but like my previous item about apostates, you should most certainly remember and learn from your experiences but as Archbishop Desmond Tutu said in the reconcilliation trials, let it not distort reality by hiding it or smothering it.
Have you been to Indonesia, there is a country that has gone up and down when it comes to sectarian bias and problems but in the last 10 years has cut most of its problems in half and is continuing to do so.
Ironically, it is here in Europe that the real problems are.
A last note, I am not interested in a conflict with you, this is a good discussion we are having and Always On Watch should be commended for encouraging it. I am sure he does not agree with all or much I say, I certainly do not with much in this blog, but is it not the right thing to do to discuss the issue in the open? I have over 30 years of experience both in travels, study and my work as a barrister/solicitor (lawyer in American Engish) to add. That is all.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteI'm still busy with household matters right now (caregiving my disabled husband, to be specific), so cannot engage at length in this discussion at the moment.
But I want to point out four things:
1. What sources about Islam will you accept? You obviously will not accept many sources that I've used or mentioned. Do you accept only personal experiences? You do cite them a lot. As for individuals profiting from books they write, well, that's true of all sides of any issue, right? In my view, the fact that one might be making money doesn't necessarily negate everything he says.
2. I am a woman, not a man.
3. I am a teacher (literature, as one subject) and am used to hosting open discussions. Often, my students don't agree with my opinions about the works we've read. But as long as learning in taking place and as long as discussions are civil, I will encourage such discussions, particularly if such discussions marshal evidence.
4. Mark Alexander is a personal friend of mine -- not merely a cyberfriend. I wouldn't categorize him as a fearmonger, but he is "on the front lines" of the Euromuslim "movement" in the UK.
WLIL,
ReplyDeleteI find it quite stressful to follow up on my comments!
I know exactly what you mean. Blogging is work!
Thank you for taking time to participate in this discussion. Your comments are welcome.
AlwaysOnWatch,
ReplyDeleteThank you for welcoming me to your website. I will continue to participate in your discussion, if I wish to vent out something that may be disagreeable or agreeable, whenever possible. Beside me wishing to avoid unpleasant conflict with anyone, another thing that is slowing down my commenting is due to the fact that I don't have a computer of my own.
Indeed, blogging can be such hard work and if it can improve our western freedom, independence and prevent terror, it would be worth participitating in, whenever possible.
WLIL
And since this is not my website, I don't see the need to reply to anyone directly other than to Always on Watch.
ReplyDeleteAs with regard with my unpleasant experience and unpleasant observation of Asia,(where I have been to singapore, cambodia, thailand, beside malaysia), I have to say that the quite massive infitration of islamic culture(where it may lead to being overwhelmed by islamic culture in asia) is not a good sign because it will lead to more extreme islamism related problems in asia, if the growing islamic spread in asia continue in mostly apathetic asia. And it would be even even worst if islamic people, whatever they wear, continue to threaten, should they afford to do so, using their faith. And no, I would never go to indonesia after being verbally abused by some islamic influenced, proislamic indonesian maids in malaysia.
It may be a good thing to travel but it is also good to be aware of different cultures in asia that tend to misuse their wealth or may have misused their wealth to further their totalitarian ideology.
WLIL
Always On Watch
ReplyDeleteThe source of Islam that I represent is basically two aspects. The first is what I consider the Academic/Reality and second the Experience/Reality. That means the first is either what is produced by consensus in the Academic World and backed-up by what is the reality on the ground. The second is the experiences of people backuped by the same criteria. Remember, I am a Catholic, so I place no basis on Islamic scriptures except from an academic point of view. As I have a great deal of experience, I do not view the scriputres and I co-chair a be-annual human-rights forum based in Asia I see data, I know about abuses, I have access to governments, NGOs and educational instituions I use these two basis as my method of judgement and knowledge source.
Regarding your being a woman, please excuse as I have limited time and it did not actually become apparent to me until last night.
You take the correct line and discuss regardless of opinions, I have noted that appreciation and continue to do so.
With all respect to your friend, he is not just attacking Islamists but the entire faith and I find much of his wording as sensationalism not cold-emotionless facts, that is my view.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteAbout your sources....You mentioned Academic/Reality. Could you be more specific? I would normally include the Koran in "academic reality," but you apparently do not.
My limited experiences have been different from yours. Relating them would take up a lot of space, but if you want to hear about them, I can work on explaining them.
Question: To what do you attribute the phenomenon of "Euromuslim"?
WLIL,
ReplyDeleteI understand. Participate in any way you wish.
Academic/Reality or Academic versus Reality to be more specific does not include any religious text because it means we, in partuclar the non-believer, is interpreting the text. Unless of course the person is an academic and in that case, they must be judged by peers.
ReplyDeleteGood examples would be that we know there are wahhabists whom interpret things literally and thus we have the situation of the laws introduced in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. We also know that the vast bulk of the leadership of Al Qaeda are also Wahhabist or Wahhabist inspired. Now we also know that they are a minority, that there are many other interpretations and we also know that even the haddiths are interpreted differently and some are not accepted by certain groups and others are introduced into others.
You may not know, but as a barrister and from my work in Asia, I have discovered even there are differences in various Sharia Law Codex depending on the country that uses it. Also that Sharia is in fact in less than 50 per cent of the Muslim countries and of those that have it the majority only for Family Law and subject to a secular Appeals Court.
So, for my sources, I trust academics that are subject to peer analysis and criticism and the words of ALL the variants of clerical interpretations and then base that upon the actual reality on the ground in each nation.
So you can imagine that I have ZERO tolerance to those that make wide sweeping generalizations as being beyond logic and reality.
The term Euromuslims was started by EU and French politicians and the Dutch and Germans are starting to use it as well.
What is means is those established Muslim migrants whom are anti-integration and have allegences outside of their country or the EU.
I do not like the term but I have no choice in the matter because the term does not sound negative but the meaning is.
Re reading your question, I did not answer it.
ReplyDeleteThe origin of this group the Euromuslims is in fact mistaken liberal policies of the 1970s, though some that were responsible were not very liberal, like Magret Thatcher in the UK.
It was a combination of liberal nicesness and political games, that started the surge of "political refugees". Accepting a political refugee from a country is a diplomatic slap in the face as it is a public way of saying you abuse your population and we all know it.
So from 1975 Europe and Britain started getting a large influx of people, particularly from Muslim nations under the refugee status. Big Mistake Number One was that most of these were not victims of abuse but in fact political agitators and extremists. Thus the Muslim Brotherhood's hard-core, Baathists and other hard-liners were given a new life and welcomed in Europe. Now 40 years on they are well established, have children that have grown up and encouraged to join the legal profession, local politics and the civil service. They agitated, infiltrated local communities and began to dominate. That brought around Big Mistake Number Two - that is convincing the nice liberal authorities to accept Mass Family Migration, which brought around a mostly low-educated mass of followers into the country who were either indebted or ignorant enough to support these radicals.
They now have a strong support base for anti-integation, they have allegences to clerics and politicians outside in their contries of origin and worst of all, they fund, harbour and offer support - and thier children - to terrorism. Not all but enough to condemn the communities as a grouping.
Two very big mistakes.
If one have to live uneasily with so llttle freedom and almost no opportunity to achieve anything as a disadvantaged nonbeliever in an asian country that is dominated by islamic culture, in almost every aspects, and when one have to face unfair discrimination, unreasonable hostility and creepy alienation from their ever unhelpful, selfish, shabby islamic culture, one would know that any criticism of islamic culture are not sweeping generalization but more to do with the unpleasant reality of backwardness and problems caused by islamic culture in asia, though other similar unpleasant nonislamic asian culture contribute to the problems too.
ReplyDeleteWLIL
Damien,
ReplyDeleteCould you name in specific academic scholars to whom you're referring? I'm curious to know if I've read any of those same scholars' work?
Damien,
ReplyDeleteA little anecdote....
About three years ago, I had an Afghan family enrolled in one of my homeschool classes. One day, I struck up a conversation with the father. He informed me that he was no longer a Muslim. Of course, I asked him why. His answer was as follows (paraphrase):
"I left my country to get away from the Taliban. When I came here to America, I attended mosque and found the same teachings going on in American mosques. I searched the Quran for myself and decided I didn't want to be Muslim any longer. I read the Bible and didn't like it either. I'm no religion now."
The mosques he was referring to are here in Northern Virginia.
So, perhaps the situation with Euromuslims isn't unique to Europe.
--------------
As for shari'a, yes, I do know that shari'a involves all sorts of concepts and applications, not all of which are anti-Western and concepts and applications that can vary from country to country. I've been studying Islam since 9/11 and have read sources other than what you refer to as anti-jihadist.
You may think I'm ignorant. Perhaps I am to a certain extent. But I'm not TOTALLY ignorant of the benign aspects of Islam. Remember, I'm a Spanish major.
BTW, medieval Al-Andalus was, for a time, quite mild. Then, the Damascence "caliphate" moved in. I'm simplifying, but I think you get my point: "radicalization" should be of concern to the West, largely because Muslims are ever searching for the will of Allah -- a concept that most Westerners do not grasp very well.
WLIL,
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned their ever unhelpful, selfish, shabby islamic culture.
Some of what you're speaking of is related to the tribal culture. Or so my friend from China tells me; she frequently comments about the similarities between Islamic culture and Chinese tribal culture.
Always On Watch,
ReplyDeleteI think indian tribal culture and islamic tribal culture have more similarities though chinese tribal culture and islamic tribal culture are also quite similar in certain ways in certain parts of asia. I think islamic influenced people are more tribalistic in an extreme manner and therefore they are more intolerant of us individuals who think very differently from them or who don't like them or who don't agree with them.
WLIL
WLIL,
ReplyDeleteThe discussion I had with my Chinese friend occurred after she had read James Michener's Caravans. She wasn't much interested in reading anti-jihadist materials, but she was more than willing to read Michener.
What really got to my friend was the oppression of women as depicted in Caravans, and she went on to speak of situations in Chinese tribal culture, which, apparently, varies by particular regions of China.
BTW, my Chinese friend was born in Taiwan and immigrated here when very young; her parents were missionaries in mainland China and fled the communists AND the tribal culture.
I have no specific academic that I follow more than others, I read mountains of material from any person who one would call a real scholar - meaning an academic who is recognized as such and undergoes regular peer scrutiny. They can have all sorts of views, agree or disagree with each other and that is a good thing, the point being they are not from a closed fringe clique that self-supports each other and avoids the greater academic society that constantly tests itself for quality, context and accuracy.
ReplyDeleteYes the US is very much like the US and though integration to a degree is different as also is the affects of society and laws, the same problem is there. We can add that some of the major Islamic groups like the all important CAIR avoids that important step of supporting unquestioned integration or distancing itself from foreign clerics and thus I do not trust it.
ReplyDeleteAs you have studied Spanish history then you will know that the purge and radicalisation that happened in Al Andalus basically wiped away a Goden Age that still has influence to this day on modern Europe and Spain (not that Spain really still recognizes that). The remnants of Al Andalus is basically still there in Morocco and to a lesser degree in Algeria and Tunisia to their gain.
ReplyDeleteIf there is any point to Al Andalus in our discussions here is that the very existance of that influencial Al Andalus proves that there was varying interpretations and not just moderate but liberal growth and more. Also that the issue is combatting radicalism and not either targetting the faith as a whole or assuming that Islam means hate and backwardness.
Interesting that you talk about tribalism.
ReplyDeleteIf anything it is tribalism that is the major problem within the Muslim world.
Tribalism and other cultural practices are often presumed to belong the faith rather than the tribal culture. Perfect examples of that is sexism in general, the niqab and burka - niqab is the face covering, burka the entire covering. Islam does not say cover the face of the body in total and historians have proven that at the time of Mohammed, neither was a main stream habit. Tribal practices had it before Islam in many areas and it grew and the effort of male dominance in tribal society ensured that it snuck in. An interesting point is that Al Azhar in Cairo that is considered the main school of Islamic studies forbids the burqa and the viel within its doors!
Talibanism is a mix of hard-line Wahhabi teachings and tribal customs and it is dispised by other Arabs even Saudi Wahhabists. It is recorded that both Bin Laden and his number 2 threatened to leave and hated every minute when living within a Taliban encampment and there was in fact twice battles with them.
The point I am making here and perhaps our friend is confusing this, what was in fact social, cultural and tribal abuse, exceptionalism, nationalism and other rather repugnant events may very well have been just that and not really Islamic.
Mentioning India is interesting because these hate sites often claim that abusing wives, killing them and slavery somehow is bad amongst Muslims when all of these are very much a part or in fact worse within the poor, uneducated and rural tribal Hindu India and Nepal. Nepal has the highest rate of spousal abuse in the world and India has the most slaves (endentured, half of which are children). Often Muslims and Islam is blamed for being the masters of rape as well, which also falls flat considering the highest rates of rape, either statistically or numerically is in South Africa.
Tribalism is a key factor.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteWe are in agreement on CAIR. It is interesting to note that, despite CAIR's claims to the contrary, few Muslims are actually members of CAIR -- if membership is indeed the correct term.
On the other hand, not very many Muslims speak out against CAIR -- except for a notable few, who are then slammed by CAIR.
CAIR's recent loss of tax-exempt status may do some damage to CAIR. We'll see.
------------
I brought up Al Aldalus as an example of something that can begin as good and end horribly -- due to the influence of fundamentalist Muslims, who are then pushed back by equally barbaric Christians. The influence and pushing back were not exactly chronologically sequential, and I don't mean to imply otherwise.
I read somewhere that some of the techniques using during the Spanish Inquisition were techniques also used by the fundamentalist Muslims of the Damascene caliphate.
In any case, religious wars are ugly.
-------------
No names for any academic scholars? Oh, well. I was hoping you'd provide a name or two so that I could read that same work.
-------------
On another note, I'm not sure that one can understand any faith (or other ideology, for that matter) without reading original works or excerpts thereof (Bible, Quran, Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged, what have you).
Isn't Morocco in the process of writing a new constitution?
ReplyDeleteNice try, Atlasshrugs as you can imagine is amongs the most laughably and inept members of the self-proclaimed anti-jihadist movement and has a leader who's entire goal is to see her name in lights.
ReplyDeleteYes I believe Morocco is again modifying its constitution making the King less powerful and handing more to the PM and parliament. I watched an interesting item TV yesterday how the world media is getting it wrong, implying that it is the Arab spring that is the cause when in fact the process of change has been on for more than ten years since their new king took power.
J Clifford Wright, M A S Abdel Haleem and the late Prof Lings all from SOAS, Prof. Akbar Ahmed from the American University in DC and M N Albani (an Albanian, deceased was considered a major fikh expert.
The above come to mind of the top of my head. Real academics, some are dead, some were into Sufism, some were pretty much orthodox but they all had differing views and were willing to go through the full academic process which you have to admit none of "those blogs" could ever hope to achieve, or we could say - they are not fringe.
In the eastern world, it is usually the poorer people or disadvantaged nonbeliever individual like myself who had fallen onto bad times that get oppressed by lack of support and lack of opportunity to improve in an oppressive asian country dominated and infested by backward, irrational, supremacist, abusive islamic people. I don't really know much about china, though I do know that some chinese people in asia are influenced by unpleasant islamic culture.
ReplyDeleteI have no sympathy for oppressive eastern people of various faiths or nonfaith who make use of their vile eastern totalitarian ideology or vile eastern culture to exploit the western world generosity or decency.
WLIL
I don't think those many islamic academics and islamic mainstream media people that I came across, which I did not take note of their name, are that original either as they tend to copy and paste from original western reviews or from orginal western historians or tend to be very anti-western achievement and tend to be extremely and fanatically supportive, directly or indirectly, of their weird worldwide pro-islamic political agenda.
ReplyDeleteAnti-islamic blogs, whether one like it or not, are getting more widespread, more high quality, more educational and reinforcing what we nonbelievers already know about the creeping of the sinisterly, unpleasant unfiltration of the islamic totalitarian culture.
WLIL
Damien,
ReplyDeleteClarification....I mentioned Atlas Shrugged not to reference Pamela Geller's web site Atlas Shrugs, but rather to make the point that I have read original works by "authors" of various ideologies, religious and otherwise, including ideologies to which I don't subscribe. Ayn Rand "invented" objectivism, so I tried to wade through her so-called "masterwork." I didn't find it well written, nor did I agree with a lot of what was presented.
I don't agree with your assessment of Pamela Geller. Also, I should tell you that I don't read her web site very often -- not for the reasons you gave, however.
Blogs may be "fringe," but sometimes "fringe" does serve a good purpose. For example, many writers of the American Revolution period were considered "fringe" at the time.
WLIL
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned: weird worldwide pro-islamic political agenda.
Indeed, that political agenda is a huge part of the problem.
Yes, most scholars (and others) have an agenda. I try to remember that and do my own evaluation based on facts that can be confirmed.
One of my pet peeves is the whitewash of the history of Islam. That whitewash has intensified since 9/11 to the point that, in some textbooks, there will be an entire chapter on Islam but no chapter on Christianity or Judaism. I saw such a phenomenon in a textbook used in high school. Perhaps Susan Douglass's hand is behind that particular textbook. Familiar with her?
Damien,
ReplyDeleteIf anything it is tribalism that is the major problem within the Muslim world.
Tribalism and Islam are comingled in many respects and has been for centuries. At some points, one cannot discern any real separation now.
AlwaysOnWatch,
ReplyDeleteIt was interesting to read about your findings and opinions.
I never heard about Susan Douglass.
I would try to check it out on the internet.
WLIL
Fringe is Fringe. The revolutionaries of America were not Fringe, they had a large, solid work-base, they were not "establishment" which is different.
ReplyDeleteModern day Fringe, in particular with the web, means that they are only supported by a limited group that if on the web is also questionably loyal. Brovado and the desire to be part of something exciting leads people to support things in anonimity but in reality would not do so, thus the Fringe is even more Fringe because their support base is not a quantifiable mass base.
In this particular case, the self-proclaimed anti-Jihad group is easily identifiable as a group but their loyalty base is not as great and quesitonable in substance.
They are mostly of a great big circle that share information and in fact often share each other as sources. They are almost totally without academic support or academic peer critique which also puts them in the fringe category. There are some connected to Academia whom carefully push their points, mostly books to sell, and are often borderline outcasts of their academic spheres.
The sad reality is that though they should be ignored, they abuse the openness of the internet to push their line to the greater mass audience on the web and thus are a danger, because they confuse the importance of issues like the threat of Islamists and terrorists.
Also, and we should not forget, even the anti-Jihad movement is hijacked by some groups to push their own agendas, such as the Evangalist Movements whom wish to attack Islam not because of any dangers, but because they want to convert and "save souls" or worse, "be on some crusade". Then there is the Settler-Movement whom want to build sufficient numbers of settlements in the West Bank to then force the Israeli Government to incorporate it all into the country, Daniel Greenfield is a perfect example. The last group is the profiteers whom simply creat blogs, join in but carefully you will see lots of links to books, posters and t-shirts of thiers or thier co-conspiritors. Get your credit-cards ready. They are not interested in the subject, they are in fact targetting the fringe for profit.
A last comment (sorry I always write in length), have you also noticed that the self-proclaimed anti-Jihadists are also mostly the far-right, mostly in the tea-party scene, mostly the ones who support partisanship, mostly are the ones who pushed the birther debate, etc, etc, etc. Oh, I am centre-right, a registered British Conservative Party member.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteI haven't yet read your last comment.
But I have published it. Your comment, for whatever reason, was stuck in Blogger's spam folder. Blogger has mysterious ways.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteNot all anti-jihadists I know fit into the classifications that you delineated in your comment. But, yes, most do.
I am an anti-jihadist, but I entered the blogosphere because of the doings of CAIR in my local community. At the time, I barely knew any anti-jihadists as I didn't have a high-speed connection to the Internet. Two of the few sites that I could get to load were Northern Virginiastan, where is used to team blog, and Jihad Watch. For years, I didn't even know that Pamela Geller existed.
By the way, the book that "lit up my board" was Trikovic's The Sword of the Prophet. Right after I read that book, I read Oriana Fallaci's book The Rage and the Pride.
Anyway, as you've already pointed out, you and I disagree on many points. However, our discussion here has been reasoned, so I've continued to participate in the discussion.
As for deleting comments, I don't do so unless the comments are vile. Dissent is not a reason for me to delete comments. Your comments will continue to stand here at my site -- unless Blogger crashes, that is.
Take care.
"The importance for discussion and debate is paramount, at the least it ensures each party has to consider their own position more seriously". - President Truman
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that good discussion and debate is available here, that we agree or disagree is in fact of no consequence.
Damien,
ReplyDeleteAcknowledged.
Thank you.