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Yes. We have a heritage of racist imperialism. We slaughtered the indians who were here when we got here and we brutally pushed them off of their land.The progeny of immigrants escaping religious persecution routinely and ritually burned the Pope in effigy. We brought black people here in chains, and to protect our Christian consciences, indulged in the fiction that they were less than human, as we also did in the late 1800's and 1900's to justify our adventures in Latin American and the Caribbean against the half-animal jungle creatures who lived there.We punished Black people and subjected them to another hundred years of government-sponsored institutional racism once we "freed" them.Americans on the Eastern Seaboard discriminated harshly against Irish and Southern European newcomers.The past half century or so has seen our society shift to using Mexicans and Central Americans as virtual slave labor while we continue our decline into slothful decadence.We can attempt to put this in historical context, but whitewashing it with post hoc rationalizations and adorning it with Tu Quoques smacks of a self-exoneration that blithely flicks away inconvenient facts that prick the conscience. It can easily become the polar-opposite of Zinnism in a subtler form.
Yes. We have a heritage of racist imperialism. We slaughtered the indians who were here when we got here and we brutally pushed them off of their land.The progeny of immigrants escaping religious persecution routinely and ritually burned the Pope in effigy. We brought black people here in chains, and to protect our Christian consciences, indulged in the fiction that they were less than human, as we also did in the late 1800's and 1900's to justify our adventures in Latin American and the Caribbean against the half-animal jungle creatures who lived there.We punished Black people and subjected them to another hundred years of government-sponsored institutional racism once we "freed" them.Americans on the Eastern Seaboard discriminated harshly against Irish and Southern European newcomers.The past half century or so has seen our society shift to using Mexicans and Central Americans as virtual slave labor while we continue our decline into slothful decadence.We can attempt to put this in historical context, but whitewashing it with post hoc rationalizations and adorning it with Tu Quoques smacks of a self-exoneration that blithely flicks away inconvenient facts that prick the conscience. It can become the polar-opposite of Zinnism in a subtler form.
SF,I'm not in favor of whitewashing America's past.But I do favor taking into account the historical context -- as we've done with Abraham Lincoln's racist statements.Furthermore, almost the entire world has a history of racist imperialism.It is my view that breast-beating guilt over the past is a dead end philosophy.
This is STUNNING especially coming from YOU.ALL people are sinners. We can't help it, the capacity to sin is built into ALL of us. The idea that we should forever BATHE in GUILT, because some of our ancestors did dreadful things –– mostly to secure their own survival –– is counter-productive."What's done is done and cannot be undone."Lady Macbeth committed SUICIDE when she confronted her profound guilt. The kind of thinking you have demonstrated today will not do ANYONE any good. Instead, it does incalculable HARM.It's sad that even someone of your large store of knowledge and fine instincts has absorbed the POISON of the Cultural Marxist point of view. Howard Zinn, a very evil person, was a MARXIST. That means his INTENT was never to ENLIGHTEN, it has been only to DESTROY.What you aver is factual, but your interpretation of those facts is as destructive, demoralizing –– and as paralyzing –– as all the classic arguments and social theories Marxism brought into our lives.Self Abnegation STINKS.Dinesh d'Souza understands us so much better than understand ourselves it's uncanny.
We don't have a history of "racist" imperialism. We have a history of imperialism. The word "racist" was added by people with a modern agenda. It was not "racist" at the time. It was "existential". Even Benjamin Franklin was a "bondsman". And had it not been for Bacon's Rebellion, it probably would have remained race "neutral".
erratum - "Bacon's Rebellion coupled with the Glorious Revolution" (above)
...because before then, NOBODY had ANY "rights". Only afterwards, did it become a question of "who" had them (white's, but not blacks).
Believing another race to be sub-human and enslaving them is indeed racism. Putting federal, state and local statutes in place to officially discriminate against people non-whites is racism.Believing the peoples of Latin America were half-wild animals descended from tree-swinging apes was racism.Here is further evidence of Western Civilization's racism:https://www.popularresistance.org/deep-racism-the-forgotten-history-of-human-zoos/Does this mean we are evil and we should all jump off a cliff? No. What it means is we are human beings. We have advanced, and thank God for that. We should also realize that some people are still burdened with this legacy. It's easy to tell American Indians to get off the reservation and snap out of it, but it's not that simple. Why don't you snap out of it and become a millionaire entrepreneur like so many others?We also have to realize that those neighborhoods in Baltimore that exploded in rioting last year are a very real legacy of very-real official government discrimination against black people.Yes, slavery ended over 100 years ago, and Jim Crow ended in the 60's, but some are still living real lives among the scraps and ruins of those legacies.
...and the Mormon Church runs human zoo's to this very day!Grow the 'f up, SF.
This sub-thread is pretty clear headed and accurate (with the notable exception of one entry).What it avoids is discussing the intent of the likes of the Whittle video, sustaining the idea of "American exceptionalism".A simple mea culpa, acceptance that "all cultures do it" and we are back in business. Sanders is going to make a speech this week about the nature of democratic socialism and maybe the place of Norman Thomas, Henry Wallace and the New Deal will be expounded in this opportunity to give a history lesson.Meanwhile you may better understand the defense of Zinn when you realize the likes of Whittle are simply attempting to finesse our true history and deny the place of the left in building the nation.
AH, the expert of "other people's intentions" has finally arrived. Elucidate for us, great sage!
Perhaps now would be a good time to discuss the efficacies of the rational Enlightenment form of totalitarianism over it's irrational and wholly "unenlightened "racially oriented" sibling....Discrimination based upon "class" is so much more enlightened than it's "racial" counterpart.
The tendency of those on the Left to attribute every American sin to "racism" is simply an extension of the 20th century European anti-fascist consensus, one thatt completely ignores the sins of it's evil Left-wing doppelganger.
American (and English) "exceptionalism" lies in the placement of Constitutional LIMITS upon absolute authoritarian powers.
ps - not "everybody" does it!
Farmer Joe,I am not a Mormon, and your on-target criticism of lefties shouting "racism" at every turn does not mean real racism doesn't exist. It would be a logical fallacy to think otherwise, but you know that already.
SF: and, of course, nowhere in any Christian scripture does it imply that anybody's 'less than human.'
Yes, SF, some people are simple minded enough to be actual racists. But the more frightening thing is, there are many many more who believe that you can make all men equal.
... and that just such an outcome is desirable /beneficial to a society.
Well, Z, you would do well to accept that the "curse of Ham" has been used by some religious sects to justify the subjugation of blacks.Not a universally held idea to be sure but its wide enough (see Twain's, Pudd'nhead Wilson ,Is this acknowledgement a critique of America or a critique of those whites who used the Bible to subjugate blacks?
Whereas the subjugation of the bourgeoisie to the dictatorship of the proletariate is a forrgone and highly anticipated conclusion, right, Mcduck?
Subjugation because of "race" is silly. Subjugation based upon economic "class" , however, is an entireky different matter. All kulaks to the gulag!
It's CULTURE not "race" that motivates hatred, suspicion and feelings of entitled superiority. The belief in Manifest Destiny seemed thoroughly justified when it was in vogue. Savages living short, brutish lives in mud huts, squalor, filth, disease and hopeless ignorance could not HELP but seem "inferior" to Europeans, because the savage cultures WERE decidedly inferior.That's not "racism" it's FACT.
Darn, Farmer. You disappointed me. Ducky left that "curse of Ham" out there like a fat one slowly floating across the plate. I thought for sure you would bat it out of the park by linking to a picture or meme of a burnt Christmas ham or something like that...I still laugh at your "water table collapse" riposte to Ducky, and your "bear hands" answer to that lady at FreeThinke's was classic.You're a witty guy.
Sometimes they just catch ya lookin'... :(
@ AOW: It is my view that breast-beating guilt over the past is a dead end philosophy.I do as well. It's not healthy, but I found Whittle's production, complete with dark-skinned men there to agree with him (a subtle variant of "but I have friends who are black") a little too cute, dismissive and self-serving, although such points as his own ancestors digging coal were well-taken. Unfortunately, we (myself included) have a hard time facing unpleasant facts and simply examining them in the George Orwell sense.When I talk to anyone or read the writings of anyone who has any axe to grind, I feel that intellectual honesty and balanced judgement have simply disappeared from the face of the earth. Everyone’s thought is forensic, everyone is simply putting a “case” with deliberate suppression of his opponent’s point of view, and, what is more, with complete insensitiveness to any sufferings except those of himself and his friends.”― George Orwell, Facing Unpleasant Facts: 1937-1939
I see nothing "cute" about any of it. The participants are passionate, vociferous and obviously perfectly sincere. Why should Whittle let Socialist ZINNITES and COMMUNISTS participate in the discussion? That pernicious element has DOMINATED the airwaves –– and the publishing industry –– for DECADES. We've already heard far too MUCH from them.I am deeply saddened to see how much they obviously got to you.It never ceases to amaze me that JEWS, –– THE ULTIMATE VICTIM GROUP ––, if you accept their opinion of themselves, are ALWAYS omitted from discussions of this kind.Zinn WAS a JEW, and that had ENORMOUS bearing on his attitude and the sneering, Canardo-esque, denigratory "career" he carved out for himself in our frankly suicidal culture. That HAS BEEN the role Jewish Intellectuals have played in our culture. We would not be having to cope with the disgusting mess we've made of ourselves were it not for THEIR septic influence.Orwell turned out to be a great PROPHET. He was brilliant, and a great writer, but the man, himself, had a cynical, hideously depressing, emotionally paralytic worldview that basically dismisses humanity as a FAILED SPECIES inherently so deeply flawed that we are DOOMED to DESTROY OURSELVES.I'm sorry, but you are so young, that bright and thoughtful as you are , you had no opportunity to escape to escape the subtle, corrosive influence of Cultural Marxism. It has seeped into the very nones of our culture and infected us with a kind of CANCER.That kind of negative thinking can too easily become a SELF-FULFULLING Prophecy.Catholicism's traditional focus primarily on GUILT, CONTRITION and SELF-ABNEGATION hasn't helped either.My grandparents were Italian immigrants. They faced every bit as much discrimination as the Irish, the Jews and every OTHER immigrant group, but you never hear about that today. WHY? Because they ROSE ABOVE IT, held their heads high, and worked very hard –– and very successfully –– to ASSIMILATE. They didn't make a career out whining and bitching their way to the top, neither did they seek to DOMINATE and TRANSFORM the culture like other ethnic groups I could mention. They just ignored the abuse, rolled up their sleeves and went to WORK –– at ANY job they could find,The history of the world is WRITTEN in BLOOD. Beating ourselves up over it AIN'T gonna do NO ONE NO GOOD NO WAY NO HOW NO TIME.Have a nice day!
As I previously stated, I agree with you and AOW that wallowing in sins of the past is unhealthy, unproductive and ultimately destructive (it is also very un-Catholic, but that is another topic for another day).If you read Orwell's essays, you will see what I am talking about. Facing Unpleasant Facts is a nice collection. He had a rare ability to write about subjects close to his heart without descending into bathos or doctrinaire finger-pointing at the designated enemy.Shooting an Elephant and The Spike are two examples. In Homage to Catalonia, he wrote a compelling story about how fighting in the Spanish Civil War shattered his cherished faith in international communism as sponsored by the Soviet Union. Still, he patiently disaggregated the various strands of leftism, and remained an anti-Soviet Union, democratic socialist.So, please rest assured "they" haven't "gotten to me."
Still, I believe we're the only country in the world who suddenly likes to spend more time slamming us than celebrating us...even among our children though we were raised standing for the pledge, learning the national tunes, feeling proud of America's great accomplishments and astonishing charity around the world.....There seems to be some weird mentality that says if you celebrate anything American, or downplay the myths of brutality that actually aren't all true (as if any country hasn't this?), you're some kind of nutty American exceptionalist...this comes from such a hateful, small mind but it's a pretty prevalent position....We all know racism exists! And did, worse, years before! But to hear Alphonse Rachel speak like he does is refreshing and he's not the only Black American who feels like that; the media just doesn't enjoy touting them. Time to MOVE ON....time to have more videos like this which expose many lies most Americans thrive on.
Forgot to mention that GERMANS , mostly leftwing Germans, actually DO beat our leftwingers for self hate....people as young as in their Forties today who carry the NAZI past on their backs and vote accordingly...like Gysi, etc.Their children haven't been taught pride in country since WWII ended; so I wasn't completely correct in suggesting we're the only country whose children are being raised with self hate and doubt.Not saying that's right or wrong, the NAZI past is a big one, but I did say we're the only ones...not so.
Good for you, Z!
I like to point out to classicists (I.E. Those that point to Rome and Greece as the foundations of White Civilization) that it was the barbarian rabble that raided and burned those abominations to the ground that gave birth to the peoples responsible for the Magna Carta and other ancient seeds of the American Revolution. Discerning the future with the intestines of goats while whacked out on methane and mushroom wine only takes a culture so far.
It also gave birth to roundheads and flathats. What's your point?
The point being there's no map that goes from the Amercan Revolution back to Greek pederasts.
Somebody should notify the flathats.
They must have forgot to pay the candlestick bill. ;)
btw - Speaking of maps going back... did you hear that Holocaust was all the Grand Mufti's idea?
FJ,All of it was his idea? Is that accurate?
Not exactly... but it's not that far from the truth.
They were "sympathetic" to the Nazi's Final Solution.
More on the mufti.
SF,I'm in the throes of grading essays to be submitted to a contest. The drop dead deadline!Please check out Ota Benga. It wasn't only the United States that was putting Africans in cages and displaying them in cages -- in the 19th and 20th Centuries after slavery in Western nations had been abolished. Europe did, too. To the credit of the United States, Ota Benga was released precisely because certain Americans demanded the man's release.Whatever the past, we have come a long way since 1864. That accomplishment should also be recognized, IMO.
Recognized and DWELT UPON, AOW. This mea culpa shtick is killing us. ENOUGH already!
I understand the history and the context.I say what I said not to damn the United States and our forbears, but rather as a plain, cold fact.I like that Whittle guy, but so much of that smack of someone clapping the dust from his hands and saying contentedly, "well, that takes care of that."We are a great nation, I execrate Howard Zinn, but it ain't that simple. Nothing in real life is.
Why can't we be proud of our national history? Even the parts where Americans slaughtered savages? Nothing in our Constitution prevents other lands from discarding their sub-American government and applying to be recognized as a legitimate government, er, US territory. The Revolution must continue.
SF... yes, cold hard facts, but there is a lot of nuance. Blacks owned Blacks during slavery, too, etc etc.. The whole video seems to me to show that the new 'hate America' facts aren't always what they seem to be........Nothing in real life is simple, no, but I will always believe both sides should be aired and Whittle's side he's presenting isn't always welcome. It isn't welcome at all among liberals; they believe we screwed everything up from the start and that's IT. Good to hear a balanced overview from Whittle, Rachel and this other guy. Enough of "Zinn is right". BS
SF,I agree that unpleasant facts should be faced. I am a realist.But harping on those facts without balancing those facts with pleasant facts lacks balance. It is that lack of balance that is the point of this blog post. IMO, the truth about America's heritage is somewhere between the two extremes (Whittle and Zinn).
I think Bill Bennett's "America, the Last, Best Hope" Vols I & II do a great job of celebrating our greatness while also acknowledging the darker incidents. I'm not historian, not even a history buff, but I thought he struck the ideal balance. Those two books were required reading for my kids.
SF,It's been a while since I read those books. Thanks for the reminder!
Why not ask Ducky, I think that his ancestors were Slaves
No, they were Slavs.
Slave owners, most likely. Yes, New England engaged in the abhorrent practice as well.
The question remains, though. Why do these people love Donald Trump, or for that matter even the Sleeping Idiot Ben Carson. so much? I doubt the answer lies in ideology. Rather, this is an emotional attachment and an expression of primal rage. And if you look at the other Republican circus — the House speakership battle — you can see what it might be. Both the Trump voter, the Tea Party regular, the talk-radio crowd and the Freedom Caucus are all saying the same thing: They’ve been lied to by the Republican Party and they’re not going to take it anymore.For years, they have been loyal foot soldiers for the GOP, putting up with candidates like Mitt Romney, a milquetoast campaigner who changed his political stripes as often as he changed his underwear. They watched George W. Bush screw the pooch in Iraq, embarrassing the party and the US of A in the eyes of the whole world. They waited and waited for the Republicans to fulfill their promises to overturn Obamacare, ban abortion, outlaw gay marriage, eliminate the deficit and kick in the teeth of any tin-horned terrorist who dared to take the name of America in vain. These were all the promises the Republicans ran on. And yet nothing happened. And they don’t understand why.
And then the magic negro got elected on the promise of hope and change. The only people who got any hope were the jihadi's, and all the poor people got pink slips and a little spare change.At this point, could Donald Trump do any worse?
Nuthin' happened... Just like those shovel-ready jobs you naive fools believed in!HA HA HA!
In an effort to clear up any misunderstanding of where my loyalties lie, let me say this, as long as I Can draw my last breath, as long as I can draw my breath I will engage in speech of MY choice, I will own the guns of MY choice and I will stand and defend MY rights against any and all enemies of this nation, be those enemies foreign, domestic or ELECTED.How do you like them apples Barack.
FJ,At this point, could Donald Trump do any worse?Doesn't seem that he could or would.
Trump's not nearly the egomaniac that Obama was/still is. Trump can actually admit to a mistake, when made, and then not sulk or express resentment over it.
Trumps ego will get us into multiple wars. Real wars. His arrogance will further complete the GOPs goal of destroying the middle class.Those on the right aren't that stupid to elect this haircut as President. He is totally un-electable. But you gotta love what he's doing to the Bush's! Lol
Syria isn't a "real war"? Who knew? Somebody need to tell THAT to ISIS.
Obama won't even admit to starting wars (Syria, Libya, Iraq 3, ...)
FJ,Obama won't even admit to starting wars (Syria, Libya, Iraq 3, ...)Of course not! He's "The One" and never makes mistakes. Pffff.
brilliant overview! but the manipulation is encouraged by the maniacs in power now! oiY!!!
News Flash! This just in.Biden will NOT run
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