tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post8377688504501022163..comments2023-10-03T07:01:41.144-05:00Comments on Always On Watch: Semper Vigilans: Objectionable Windows?Always On Watchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-61725891542391856752013-12-21T06:24:27.281-06:002013-12-21T06:24:27.281-06:00AOW said: "Myself -- I can't feel guilty ...AOW said: "Myself -- I can't feel guilty about something that I had nothing to do with."<br /><br />You can't, of course. White guilt, white privilege, etc are all racist concepts, which require judging on skin color instead of the person.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-9027910783312222642013-12-21T06:18:27.419-06:002013-12-21T06:18:27.419-06:00Dmarks,
I'm not sure, but I don't think th...Dmarks,<br />I'm not sure, but I don't think that Virginia had nearly as many slaves as the Deep South. Of course, plantation owners here had some slaves, but not the hordes that cotton plantations did.<br /><br />Ah, well. Slavery is gone now. What remains: problems with race relations.<br /><br />Myself -- I can't feel guilty about something that I had nothing to do with.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-54279639025449818172013-12-20T15:26:34.934-06:002013-12-20T15:26:34.934-06:00AOW, I have ancestors from old Virginia, the "...AOW, I have ancestors from old Virginia, the "Empire State" of the south. I have no idea if any of them had slaves. I suspect they might have.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-45621090489482014212013-12-20T14:48:18.747-06:002013-12-20T14:48:18.747-06:00Fair enough. I will say that I found some of the c...Fair enough. I will say that I found some of the comments about Northern hypocrisy enlightening. But none of them made me budge on a fact-based and morality-fueled conviction that something like the Emancipation Proclamation ending slavery was not only due then, it was due way before. And that a concept of "states rights" based mainly, even if not entirely, on preserving the right of the state government to deprive a huge proportion of its people of basic rights is immoral and indefensible.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-35984000622486366062013-12-20T14:43:48.475-06:002013-12-20T14:43:48.475-06:00Sam is arguing that it was good to keep it alive. ...<i> Sam is arguing that it was good to keep it alive. </i><br /><br />I didn't interpret his comments that way. Of course, I have the advantage of personally knowing Sam.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-76958098241121891132013-12-20T14:21:48.234-06:002013-12-20T14:21:48.234-06:00AOW said "I'm not saying that people are ...AOW said "I'm not saying that people are not better off if they're free. Not at all! However, freedom is a nebulous ideal if living condition is a dead end....So, you see, I don't find Sam's statements silly at all"<br /><br />I don't find any of these difficulties as any sort of excuse to keep the entirely illegitimate institution of slavery alive. Sam is arguing that it was good to keep it alive. IMHO, that is worse than "silly".<br /><br />you are dealing in subtleties, he deals in outrages.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-7899899662346584992013-12-20T13:42:27.711-06:002013-12-20T13:42:27.711-06:00BTW, my ancestors did not hold slaves. Dad's ...BTW, my ancestors did not hold slaves. Dad's side had moral objections, and Mom's side was so poor that they lived on ground that wouldn't sprout black-eyed peas.<br /><br />Besides, none of my family originated from the Deep South, where cotton was king. Southerners depended on cotton for their livelihood in much the same manner that we depend on our vehicles today (no car, no job, no food on the table).Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-32846981943202595802013-12-20T13:40:11.231-06:002013-12-20T13:40:11.231-06:00"the socialistic version of the high ground&q..."the socialistic version of the high ground" should read <br />the socialistic version of the <b>moral</b> high ground"Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-71878039469083638342013-12-20T13:38:57.253-06:002013-12-20T13:38:57.253-06:00Dmarks,
Sam: "no one from the north had a clu...Dmarks,<br /><i>Sam: "no one from the north had a clue about what the southern farmers should do about slavery, other than to release their slaves. Release them to what? " </i><br /><br />Release didn't wave a magic wand. Labor skills that were no longer valid and lack of education -- and, of course, racial prejudice -- were factors that resulted in many blacks living in terrible conditions after their release from slavery.<br /><br />I'm not saying that people are not better off if they're free. Not at all! However, freedom is a nebulous ideal if living condition is a dead end.<br /><br />So, you see, I don't find Sam's statements silly at all. The economic and social realities were devastating and lasted decades.<br /><br />We could discuss this <i>ad nauseum</i>. Complexities are multi-faceted.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-70835896614056672052013-12-20T13:33:23.918-06:002013-12-20T13:33:23.918-06:00I know that the distribute-the-wealth push is.
My...I know that the distribute-the-wealth push is.<br /><br />My point, of course, is that socialism relies on the socialistic version of the high ground. It is a fact that grinding poverty is hideous and self-perpetuating. My maternal ancestors were from Appalachia and couldn't get out until FDR came along.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-9897690831952260182013-12-20T09:42:25.353-06:002013-12-20T09:42:25.353-06:00Z said: "For Ducky to have to resort to Wikip...Z said: "For Ducky to have to resort to Wikipedia to show us a terrible example of brutality's a little weird...it's not like we all don't know slavery was HORRID."<br /><br />Most of us here know this. Two of us do not.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-65628253289376849442013-12-20T09:34:52.585-06:002013-12-20T09:34:52.585-06:00Z said: "But, yes...some slaves were treated ...Z said: "But, yes...some slaves were treated very well,"<br /><br />Were they free to leave the plantation for any reason, any time, and never return if they wish?<br /><br />If not, Z, then this positive treatment was nothing more than that is a prisoner who is brutalized less.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-3078991524540230542013-12-20T09:32:42.076-06:002013-12-20T09:32:42.076-06:00And I repeat this silly statement by Sam: "no...And I repeat this silly statement by Sam: "no one from the north had a clue about what the southern farmers should do about slavery, other than to release their slaves. Release them to what? "<br /><br />How can an "expert" in anything say something so silly as he did, again and again.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-19641640580613314222013-12-20T09:30:23.828-06:002013-12-20T09:30:23.828-06:00AOW asked: " Is such redistribution morally s...AOW asked: " Is such redistribution morally sound? Many would say that it is."<br /><br />This redistribution is nothing more than theft by those in power, who are able to get away with it because they have the guns and will kill people if they refuse. Then these rulers line their own pockets with it, and the stolen money to their friends. They can get away with it most of the time because the say they are doing it for good reasons. And this is very immoral.<br /><br />That is what the situation is, at the heart of it.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-90790907182555866952013-12-20T09:27:42.801-06:002013-12-20T09:27:42.801-06:00AOW: I respectfully disagree with you. Their "...AOW: I respectfully disagree with you. Their "expertise" does not extend to their statements about how good slavery was: statements which show a complete lack of information of history, as well as complete disrespect for our basic rights. And it is greatly undermined when they mention the presence of Walmarts (or not) in the antebellum South as a factor. There is no validity to that, while there is some validity to the stuff they say when they not being bonkers.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-69109359677242595622013-12-20T07:46:12.011-06:002013-12-20T07:46:12.011-06:00Dmarks,
Oh, and one more thing....Sam is an expert...Dmarks,<br />Oh, and one more thing....Sam is an expert on history (qualified both formally and informally). Stogie is an avid student of history as is Jason Pappas.<br /><br />You do not agree with them, but such disagreement does not subtract from the validity of what they have stated in this thread.<br /><br />Again, this matter is complex. People living during the time when things came to a head recognized that complexity -- including Lincoln himself.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-21095988684754054762013-12-20T07:43:53.165-06:002013-12-20T07:43:53.165-06:00Dmarks,
The whole matter is thorny.
One problem w...Dmarks,<br />The whole matter is thorny.<br /><br />One problem with the argument that the government should promote and enforce morality, particularly in the context of today...<br /><br />Obama says over and over again "It'sthe right thing to do." Now he is advocating with some frequency that the redistribution of wealth is "the right thing to do." Is such redistribution morally sound? Many would say that it is.<br /><br />Caveat: this comment is not to be construed as one supporting human slavery.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-69134502846592681842013-12-20T06:49:42.658-06:002013-12-20T06:49:42.658-06:00Interesting points, once we have moved past the ma...Interesting points, once we have moved past the main arguments of Sam and Stogie (sophistry of claiming that the Civil War wasn't about slavery, but instead about the right of states to have slaves.... how slaveowners deserved a reward for the atrocities they committed...the importance of Walmart in the 1850s.... and claims about how well treated slaves are).dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-19047300677455908292013-12-16T05:32:21.799-06:002013-12-16T05:32:21.799-06:00FT,
Here's one for you....Recently, I polled a...FT,<br />Here's one for you....Recently, I polled a few homeschool parents, <b>all with college degrees</b>, to ascertain how many had read a Shakespeare play. Very few! I kid you not! How is such a lack of education even possible? <br /><br />I learned long ago that a lack of formal education is no barrier to actually having knowledge. For example, my father, who completed school only through the 10th grade (1927) but was an avid reader his entire life, was actually a man who had acquired <b>real</b> education on his own; time and again while I was in college, he had to assist me with various history courses. I learned in a similar way for different subject areas that my grandmother (8th grade graduate) and my mother (high school graduate) were actually very educated people despite their lack of formal education. <br /><br />I could go on and on with similar examples. At the same time, I'm witnessing that many with PhD's are dumber than boxes of rocks. <br /><br />Frankly, I'm grateful that I'll finish my teaching career sometime in the next 6 years! Ignorance on the part of students doesn't bother me much. But the ignorance on the part of degreed parents? <b>YE, GODS!</b> Worse, these parents often see no point in supporting what I do with academics and curricula. I do sometimes feel as if I'm sending my students off into a void!Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-77198544179505609522013-12-16T05:16:04.006-06:002013-12-16T05:16:04.006-06:00Bob, what an amazing comment! My heart broke hear...Bob, what an amazing comment! My heart broke hearing about the soldier who had to tell his father two brothers were killed. Your whole comment was fascinating to read. Thank you for sharing with us some of what you know. Great stuff.<br />I must say I'm for the windows staying as is, but I do see your point about them.<br /><br />Someone mentioned slaves being treated well, far up above, and, indeed, some were. For Ducky to have to resort to Wikipedia to show us a terrible example of brutality's a little weird...it's not like we all don't know slavery was HORRID.<br />But, yes...some slaves were treated very well, did not want to leave their plantations upon freedom and even loaned money to their white plantation owners from the patches of land the owners had allowed them to farm. A black writer wrote about this and I remember seeing a lecture of his on CSPAN years ago. yes, many were treated much differently than we've been taught; sadly, not enough were. Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989573357446569262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-76801533782732159622013-12-16T00:19:58.781-06:002013-12-16T00:19:58.781-06:00Just reading a sampling of letters written by ordi...Just reading a sampling of letters written by ordinary people at the time of the Civil War gives proof to your assertion, AOW. Many people who had little "formal education" were familiar with the Bible and Shakespeare, were capable of writing beautiful letters to their loved ones in expressive English. Diaries from the nineteenth century also tend to demonstrate that we were a more sober, reflective, polite, reverent, and gentle people then than most are today. <br /><br />There are many reasons for our decline, of course. At one time or another I've discussed most of them. This is no time to rehash all that. But you are right. We ARE a shallower, less literate, less cultured, less considerate, less disciplined society than we were before the Progressives, the anarchists, the upstarts, the troublemakers, the cultural Marxists began to take over early in the last century. FreeThinkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16682678301019952436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-49353983710634260762013-12-15T04:43:52.444-06:002013-12-15T04:43:52.444-06:00Jason,
Thank you so much for mentioning those deta...Jason,<br />Thank you so much for mentioning those details about Lee's surrender at Appomattox.<br /><br />You made such an eloquent statement to conclude your comment:<br /><br /><i>We are challenged to follow Grant’s example.</i><br /><br />Supposedly, we living in the 21st Century are more evolved than those who lived in the 19th Century. Lately, I've come to believe that humanity has regressed in several ways, particularly with regard to both civility and perspective.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-47867904996090184192013-12-14T18:13:03.346-06:002013-12-14T18:13:03.346-06:00Mustang’s opening remarks show the perspective of ...Mustang’s opening remarks show the perspective of a great teacher of history. <br /><br />After I read the Washington Post article I thought of Lee’s surrender at Appomattox. I’ve read that Grant was worried that the South, as its army was defeated, wouldn’t surrender but disperse. In this case fighting would continue in the hills and fields guerrilla-style. Think about the occupation of Iraq, for example, to imagine that horror. But Lee ordered his troops to surrender and return home. He surrendered as an honorable man and gentleman. Grant, as I recall, restrained his troops from gloating and ordered them to show respect. Thus, the respect shown to Lee (and Jackson) in that cathedral is the respect Grant gave Lee and the southern soldiers at Appomattox. We are challenged to follow Grant’s example. Jason Pappashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18233796281520274898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-13321316397591251362013-12-14T15:31:42.406-06:002013-12-14T15:31:42.406-06:00The windows are beautifully wrought works of fine ...The windows are beautifully wrought works of fine art. Destroying them would be as BARBARIC -- and MORONIC -- as going into the Louvre, the Uffizi the Prado -- or any great museum -- and slashing oil paintings by great masters to ribands with long knives or machine gunning marble statues from antiquity to rubble.<br /><br />This politicizing of established works of art and architecture to suit the whims of a few disaffected crackpots is as despicable ad untenable as serving feces in place of the host and urine in place of the wine at Communion. <br /><br />This is the kind of thing MUSLIMS do to the holy shrines of faiths they do not respect. THe only difference here is that WE use LAWYERS and COURTS as WEAPONS of DESECRATION and DESTRUCTION in the names of "Social Justice" or some such horse puckey.<br /><br /><b>Wildstar and I had it right from the start. This was NOT about the Civil War, Slavery, Civil RIghts, Racism, Equality or anything other than NAKED AGGRESSION by a lousy stinking PRESSURE GROUP in the attempt to DESTROY established works of ART symbolizing part of our history just prove they can sue to get the POWER to THROW THEIR WEGHT AROUND,</b><br /><br />It's DISGUSTING that such an issue would be give any official consideration whatsoever,<br /><br /><br /><br />FreeThinkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16682678301019952436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4320479736034351430.post-66565982517219418202013-12-14T12:22:15.579-06:002013-12-14T12:22:15.579-06:00Bob,
I understand what you're saying, but can&...Bob,<br />I understand what you're saying, but can't say that I agree because removing and replacing the windows would have to be done at great expense. Furthermore, at what point do we call an end to not caving in to anyone and everyone who is offended. So many people are offended these days! I'm of the school of if you don't like it, don't look at it.<br /><br />In any case, I've heard nothing more about the matter of those windows at the National Cathedral.Always On Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192688822955022541noreply@blogger.com